#3: The “What” Skills of Mindfulness
Would you like to learn to practice mindfulness in the DBT framework? Today, Marielle and Ed will be discussing the three ‘what’ skills of mindfulness. These are called ‘what’ skills because they are what you actually do to practice mindfulness in the DBT framework. These skills are done one at a time. Listen in today, to find out about the three things that we do to practice being in the present moment.
In DBT, there are three things we can do to practice being mindful in the moment. The first is to observe, the second is to describe what we are observing, and the third one is to participate. Each of these is a different approach to being in the present moment. In a later episode, we will explain the ‘how’ skills, as these are the companion to the ‘what’ skills because the ‘how’ skills are how you do the ‘what’ skills. Tune in today, to find out about the three different and equally beneficial ways to practice mindfulness, one moment at a time, whenever you can, in your everyday life.
Show Highlights:
- Marielle explains what observing is all about.
- Observing is the direct notice of sensory experience.
- Observing is noticing what you are sensing without labeling it, reacting to it, or judging it.
- One of the ‘how’ skills is the ability to be non-judgmental.
- Ed explains how observing mindfully helps him to pay attention.
- Why observing can be tricky for most people.
- Judgments can cause people to want to change an experience or to want to push it away.
- The many benefits of observing.
- Being mindful allows us to be present without feeling the pressure to do more.
- DBT encourages you to practice being mindful for just a second if that’s what you’re able to do.
- Regular practice makes mindfulness easier.
- All the mindfulness skills in DBT are about bringing mindfulness and awareness to your everyday life, to help reduce reactivity, increase feelings of aliveness, and be connected to others, and decrease emotional suffering.
- Marielle leads us in a brief observe skill practice exercise.
- If your mind wanders just bring it back.
- The main goals of observing.
- The describe skill is putting words to what you observe.
- When you describe, you stick to the facts- just the who, what, when, and where. You leave out your interpretations or your assumptions.
- Interpretations can lead to assumptions. The describe skill can help you because sticking to the facts can prevent you from becoming anxious or worried.
- Our interpretations are usually based on our own opinions rather than facts, so our interpretation of a situation can lead us to react to the situation rather than responding to it.
- Building and honing the describe muscle.
- Marielle leads us in a brief describe skill practice exercise.
- Describe can really help when you’re in the throes of intense emotion.
- Ed describes the participate skills. Some may be easy and work for you and others might not.
- Ed explains how the participate skill for mindfulness is the opposite of observing and describing.
- You can use participation to anchor yourself to the present moment.
- Participation allows us to become fully absorbed in whatever we are doing.
- Participation can allow you to dance like nobody is watching you.
- Participation allows you to feel a part ofsomething, rather than feeling apart fromsomething.
- Participating includes acting intuitively from your wise mind. This means that your actions are in service of your long-term goals.
Links and resources:
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#3: The “What” Skills of Mindfulness Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast, where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
Hello, and thanks for joining us for the third episode of The Skillful Podcast, where I’ll be joined again by Ed Fowler. And we’ll be discussing what you actually do to practicemindfulness in the DBT framework.
Marielle Berg
Welcome back, Ed. Today we’re going to be talking about the what skills of DBT and the What skills or what you actually do to be mindful. In our last episode, we were talking about Wise Mind, which is a place that, an internal state, that incorporates both emotion and logic, so we can reach a place of Wise Mind.
Marielle Berg
So today, we’re going to be talking about the What skills of mindfulness. And the reason they’re called the What skills is because they are what you actually do to practice mindfulness in the DBT Framework.
Ed Fowler
Yes.
Marielle Berg
And we do the what skills one at a time.
Ed Fowler
Yes.
Marielle Berg
Do you want to get started just giving us a rundown on what exactly the what skills are?
Ed Fowler
Sure, definitely. So the, in DBT, we think about three ways of practicing mindfulness, things that we can do to practice being mindfu,l being in the present moment. One is to Observe, the second is to Describe what we’re observing, and the third is to Participate. And each of them is a different approach to really being in the present moment.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And then we’ll be discussing that today. But in a subsequent episode, the How skills, which are the companion to the What skills, so the How skills are how you do the What skills. But to start with today, it’s all about the three what skills, the Observe, that Describe and Participate.
Marielle Berg
So Observe is, as it sounds, it’s essentially noticing what’s going on around you, so externally, and noticing what’s going on inside of you internally. So it’s a direct notice of sensory experience. One way to think about it is to think about observe as a way to help you notice what you feel, what you sense, what you see, what you taste, what you touch, and what you hear, without labeling it, reacting to it, or judging it.
Ed Fowler
And that’s what I appreciate about observing as a mindfulness practice, is just noticing. And when we talk about the how skills, one of them is nonjudgmentalness, because oftentimes, I will notice what’s going on around me or notice what’s going on within me, with a judgment of like this, that’s good, that’s bad, I don’t like that, that shouldn’t be that way. And observing mindfully helps me to just pay attention, to just take a moment to just notice, what are the physical sensations I might be experiencing? What emotions might I be experiencing? What is around me? Rather than trying to like judge them, just to observe.
Marielle Berg
Mm hmm. And this can be really tricky for most people, especially at first, because our mind sort of naturally wants to label and judge whatever experience we’re having, rather than just being with the bare sensations of experience. So when we’re observing, we’re allowing the immediate experience to just kind of be there, without pushing it away, or trying to change it. And as you said, this sort of this desire to want to push away or try to change our experience, often come to judgments. I don’t like this. I do like this. This has to change. This is awful. This is wonderful.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, I want I want more of this. I don’t want any of this. And when I am practicing observing mindfully, I’m just being in it.
Marielle Berg
Yes. The Observe skill, so it has many benefits. And the main one, which is the one we’re talking about, is that helps us detach our judgments and assessments from what’s actually happening. And I think it can have another benefit in that it can help you feel more alive in the moment you’re actually in, instead of kind of lost, thinking about the past, or like planning for the future, which can lead someone to feel like they’re not truly, like they’re kind of sleepwalking through life.
Ed Fowler
Right. And for me, one of the ways that I remember to practice mindfulness is that for me, the opposite of mindfulness is mindlessness. And I spend a lot of time mindlessly through my life, on autopilot, just doing things. And mindfully observing gives me a chance to be in the moment be in my life, to observe what’s around me to not just say, you know, it’s a cloudy day, but to look and see, what are the clouds, like? What am I noticing in those clouds? What else do I notice in my senses, when I’m looking at those clouds? it’s about not just being on autopilot, but to be able to fully engage.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, there’s such a richness to it, when we can allow ourselves to observe in that way.
Ed Fowler
And one of the things I appreciate about in DBT, is that we really are just focusing on for a moment. It doesn’t have to be for half an hour, or hours or five minutes. It can be you know, let me, just as I’m walking down the street, observe what’s around me for 30 seconds or 60 seconds, and have that moment of being present, without pressure to do more.
Marielle Berg
I love that you brought that up. Because I think so often with mindfulness, people can feel, and I know I have felt that myself, that now I have to be mindful all the time, I need to live a mindful life. Which is great if you want to pursue that, and that can feel really daunting and overwhelming. Because we just said we have stuff to get done. We got shit to do. We maybe want to, I don’t know if that wants to be edited out. But we got shit to do. I’m okay swearing.
Ed Fowler
We do.
Marielle Berg
Yeah.
Ed Fowler
Yeah. And I think that for me, I am conscientious of DBTs encouragement of, do it for a second, if that’s what you’re able to do. Because I cannot, I really struggle to be mindful for more than a short period of time. And at this point, I do a little bit every day, I’m able to remember and do a little every single day to have a couple of moments here and there. And the Observe skill is the one that I find to be the one I do the most, to just mindfully observe what’s happening within me, what’s happening around me. Just for a second, because I can’t handle more than that.
Marielle Berg
And do you notice as you’re doing it regularly, every day for short periods of time that that muscle is growing, or it’s getting a little bit easier?
Ed Fowler
When people talk about mindfulness, oftentimes, it’s like to go away to a quiet place, and really be mindful in the moment. And that’s what I used to have to do, that I really wasn’t able to practice mindfulness other than that. And then I didn’t want to do that, because I have shit to do. So I don’t have time to go and be quiet and mindful for 10 minutes.
Ed Fowler
And so now, like, I’m able to click into it pretty quickly. Even when I, I would like to be able to spend a little bit more time with mindfulness practice, like so longer periods when I’m doing it. And I’m able to do it on a moment’s notice pretty much anywhere. Just when I notice maybe that my mind is racing. It’s like, hold on a second, just come back to what am I observing around me right now?
Marielle Berg
Nice. I mean, I can certainly relate to that. And while it’s wonderful, if you have the time and space to set aside time to meditate, it’s not what we’re talking about and what we’re teaching in DBT. I feel like that’s one way to really strengthen the muscle of mindfulness. But really what we want listeners to get, is that the Observe and all theMindfulness skills in DBT are about bringing mindfulness and awareness to your everyday life, to help reduce reactivity, increase feelings of aliveness and being connected to others, and decrease emotional suffering.
Ed Fowler
Exactly.
Marielle Berg
Yeah. With many of the mindfulness skills, it’s these are concepts we’re talking about. And I think one of the best ways to get a sense of these skills is to actually practice. So I’m going to lead you in a very brief Observe skill. So obviously, if you’re driving, don’t, don’t necessarily do this if you need to be focusing on the road. But if you’re able to take a moment of quiet, in whatever context you’re listening to this, to sit down and practice some observe, go for it.
Marielle Berg
So ideally, you’re sitting someplace comfortably. What I want you to do is pretty simple. So we’re going to focus on the your sense of, of hearing of what you hear. So sit quietly and I’ll be quiet for a minute or so. And I just want you to observe the sounds around you. You might observe the sound of your breath, and the background noises, like the heater or the air conditioner or street noises, or the wind if your window’s open and it’s windy just for the next minute observing sounds.
Marielle Berg
If your mind has wandered, gently bringing it back to just observing the sounds around you.
Marielle Berg
Okay, coming back. I’m wondering, Ed, if you can say just a little bit about how that that small Observe exercise was. What did you notice?
Ed Fowler
It’s fascinating. I’ve never noticed this before. But just being really quiet, I noticed ah, my ears are kind of ringing. I’m like, are my ears always ringing, and I’m not mindful enough to notice? I don’t know. And I appreciate that one because it’s so focused.
Ed Fowler
Like, just notice what I’m hearing. And when we practice mindfulness in like our skills group, we will do what you did, which is to remind us that if our mind wanders, bring it back. And for me, always, my mind has wandered. So as soon as someone says, If your mind has wandered, bring it back, like, ah, my mind wandered. That’s such a helpful reminder. And I think for me, I really appreciate that encouragement of our minds will wander. Our minds are built to think so, they’re going to think. And when we’re trying to practice mindfulness for a minute or two, our mind is going to wander and the practice is really just to notice my mind has wandered, and to bring it back, to, in this case, listening. And just hearing when I’m, notice what I’m hearing. I appreciated that reminder that like, yeah, let my mind go. And then bring it back.
Marielle Berg
Yes, anyone listening who just tried this with us who can relate to Ed’s experience, that’s completely normal. You know, our minds do wander. Especially if you’re new to mindfulness, that’s going to happen. But even if you’ve been doing it a long time, and you bring it back, that’s that’s the practice of mindfulness.
Marielle Berg
When we’re practicing, Observe, it really helps you be in the here and now experiencing reality as it is. So it’s a skill that can help you feel much more awake in your life. And when you’re awake, you’re much more likely to be able to access a more calm, centered, Wise Mind place in yourself. That’s really one of the main goals of Observe.
Ed Fowler
Definitely.
Marielle Berg
So that’s our Observe skill, we’re going to move on to the next What skill and again, you do these one at a time, although Describe can often come sort of on the heels of Observe. So when we’re observing, where it’s wordless watching, we’re just noticing without adding any kind of labels, or judgments or interpretations. So that Describe skill is putting words to what you observe, whether that’s an emotion, a sensation, or a thought. And here, here’s the kind of tricky part, and you alluded to this earlier in terms of judgments, that when you describe, you are sticking to the facts. Just the who, what, when and where. And you’re leaving out your interpretations, or your assumptions.
Ed Fowler
I find using Describe for mindfulness to often be a little easier than using Observe, because my mind tends to wander a lot and putting words to what I’m observing can help me stay a little bit more focused. So sometimes I’m able to just sit and observe and notice, and sometimes I need to put words to it. What helps me with using Describe for mindfulness is really making an effort to stick to the facts to describe what I am observing as factually as possible. So leaving out my assumptions, leaving out my interpretations and my opinions and just trying to describe as simply as I can.
Marielle Berg
Right. So let’s, let’s talk about an example, to help illustrate what we’re discussing here. So imagine you’re at a cafe with a good friend, it’s a meeting you’ve been really looking forward to, you want to catch up with them. And your friend keeps shifting in their seat, sort of like looking around them turning their head, they’re pretty fidgety, as you guys are talking. And that’s starting to make you anxious.
Marielle Berg
So if you begin to interpret their behavior, you might jump to conclusions. You might find that you have a lot of opinions or a judgment, you might get worried that your friend is angry with you, or that they’re bored, and they don’t want to be there. Or maybe that they don’t really care about you anymore. And so if you’re using the Describe skill, you would just be labeling what you’re noticing. Oh, my friend is shifting in their seat a lot. Oh, they’re turning their head. You can also describe, so that’s externally, you can also describe what’s going on internally. I’m having worry thoughts, as she’s doing this, or they’re doing it. I’m starting to feel a little bit uncomfortable. Which is different than where your head might go. So when you say I’m starting to feel uncomfortable, or anxious, or having worrisome thoughts, it gives you a little bit of breathing room internally, which is different than just being in the anxious or worried thoughts. So I’m getting into now, the place of internally describing
Ed Fowler
Yeah I think that is such a good example, because I know I am used to, and I think many of us are used to, constantly interpreting what’s going on around us. In order to be effective in our lives, we have to be able to interpret to a certain extent. I think, for me, my interpretations are often based on my own opinions and judgments rather than facts, and can easily increase my emotional reactivity.
Ed Fowler
So someone’s shifting around, why are they doing this? What’s wrong? What’s wrong with them? What’s wrong with me? And the mindful Describe skill is just the breaking it down to, they are shifting, they’re turning their head, I am noticing worried thoughts. And there’s such a different quality to that perspective than what’s wrong, what’s wrong? What am I doing? What are they doing? Who’s wrong, is it me or them?
Marielle Berg
And when you do that, you can start believing it and acting from that perspective. So if you’re getting angry at them, or angry at yourself, that can shift the whole nature of the interaction, and it can become a bit of a self fulfilling prophecy.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
Versus if you can describe, first of all, it’ll probably calm you down a bit. And secondly, it might bring up some curiosity. And maybe you decide you want to ask your friend, like, Hey, I’m noticing you shifting around, like just wondering what’s going on? Who knows?
Ed Fowler
And again, there’s a very different quality to I’m noticing that you’re shifting around a lot versus what’s wrong? Why do you keep looking around?
Marielle Berg
Right. Are you bored with what I’m talking about?
Ed Fowler
And so again, practicing the mindful Describe skill, not necessarily in this kind of conversation, helps me build that ability that I can use in a moment where I might need it the most. Which interpersonally, is often like, that’s where it’s the most helpful is being able to describe. If I am practicing describing mindfully on a regular basis, it’s a lot easier to pull myself back and say this person is shifting, they’re looking around, ,and to say, I’m noticing you’re shifting and looking around.
Ed Fowler
For me, I find it more, easier to practice describing with something like you know, like I am something I’m holding in my hand, and describing what the quality of the texture is, or what I am seeing with my eyes, that kind of thing. And that’s a way to build that skill that then I can use when I need it.
Marielle Berg
You’re talking about the very tactile, which I think is a great way to begin to experiment with Describe on your own. So you can do this with any object. You can grab a pen or anything around you, and sit there and you know, an everyday object and really describe it. The color, the weight, without judgment. And that’s a way of honing the Describe muscle.
Marielle Berg
And I think that that might be our segue into trying a Describe, well really an Observe and Describe mindfulness exercise together. So again, if you’re in a safe place to get mindful, do that. Otherwise, you can always of course, pause this recording and come back to it if you want to try it a different time when you have a moment to sit down and focus. So again, get yourself comfortable sitting somewhere or lying down. This will just be a couple minutes and you can either close your eyes or look downward. and turn your focus internally to your internal world.
Marielle Berg
And observe if there are any sensations happening in your body right now.
Marielle Berg
So that could be a certain feeling in some of your muscles, or your stomach, or your throat, or anywhere really, you’re just observing any sensations present in your body.
Marielle Berg
And now add words to what you’re observing. Again, just sticking to the facts. So describing the sensations you are observing.
Marielle Berg
That could be, my shoulder muscles are tight or my stomach is rumbling. Or my hands feel warm in my lap, whatever it might be. You’re just describing the physical sensations you’re noticing in your body right now.
Marielle Berg
And if a judgment comes up as you’re describing, such as my jaw is really clenched tight, I hate this about myself, why am I so wound up all the time, you can Describe that yourself. Oh, I’m having a judgement about the tension in my jaw. I’m having an emotion about it.
Marielle Berg
Okay, and you can begin to shift your focus back. So that was just a little taste of Describe coupled with Observe for what’s going on in your internal world. How was that for you, Ed?
Ed Fowler
That was helpful. And I was aware that I often don’t notice my body sensations during the day, and the nuances of it. And using the Describe skill helped a lot to be able to focus my mind on putting words to the sensations and cutting off the judgments. So noticing, for instance, my fingertips feel cold. And I, my mind went to oh my God, why are my fingers so cold. There’s pulling it back to, my fingertips feel cold, and noticing the quality of the pressure of my feet in my shoes. Little nuances that I don’t usually notice, and then trying to describe, like my my feet, I can feel pressure in my shoes. And it did really keep my mind more focused than just observing to try to put words to it. And that’s what I appreciate about the Describe skill.
Marielle Berg
So noticing a lot more than you would normally just going about your day to day life?
Ed Fowler
Absolutely.
Marielle Berg
Yeah. One other thing about Describe, it can be incredibly helpful if you’re in the throes of an intense emotion. So let’s take anger, for example. Anger is a very sort of hot kind of feeling, can feel very overwhelming when you’re in the middle of it. And if you can use Observe and Describe to just notice the sensations related to anger in your body. So it could be a clenching of your fists, could be a flushing of your face, whatever it might be. And describe to yourself oh, I’m feeling really angry right now. There is such a difference internally versus just being in the anger. You’ve already created a bit of distance. That’s the part of you that’s witnessing your experience rather than being identified with it 100%.
Ed Fowler
I find this really, really helpful.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, me too. So it’s quite powerful. That’s Describe and Observe. So, let’s move on to our last What skill which is Participate. And I’m gonna let you begin describing Participate in because you know, it’s one I struggle with.
Ed Fowler
And it’s one that I find particularly helpful. And again, I think it’s a such a good reminder that with any DBT skill, and certainly with the Mindfulness skills, there are ones that we’re going to really be drawn to, and find really helpful, and easy to engage with. And there are going to be other skills that we struggle with, or we find this doesn’t actually really work for me in this way. And so it’s good just to know what works for you and what doesn’t, to try to stretch ourselves a little bit. And to use what we’re going to use. So when we get into effectiveness, we get to, like talk about using the skill that you will actually try.
Ed Fowler
The Participate skill for Mindfulness is the opposite of Observing and Describing. So with both Observing and Describing, we’re taking a step back, and having more of a distant view of what’s happening. Whereas with Participating, we are throwing ourselves into what we’re doing. So we are not removed, we’re fully in it, really trying to let go of self consciousness, let go of awareness of our own participation, and just be in the moment doing whatever we are doing.
Ed Fowler
So that could be fully engaging in a conversation and really listening to the other person rather than planning what I’m going to say next or thinking about, what did they mean when they said that, but just really, truly listening. That’s a form of participating. To be involved in an activity, like a game or a puzzle or something like that, and just fully be in it. And if my mind starts to wander, so that I’m doing, I really like to do Sudoku puzzles, and if my mind is wandering, and I’m thinking, and I’m not really in it, to just pull it back to fully engaging in that puzzle that I’m doing. Those are examples of how we use Participation, to anchor ourselves to the present moment.
Marielle Berg
Really nice description, it’s really the opposite, Participate as the opposite of sitting on the sidelines and watching. You’re throwing yourself in 100% without self consciousness. And most young kids are great at this, they can become completely absorbed in whatever they’re doing. I took my little nieces to see a bubble show, which was essentially, millions of bubbles being blown into the audience. And they were on their feet, screaming and laughing and grabbing for the bubbles trying to catch them. Not self conscious, not thinking how do I look, am I am I yelling too loud. Any of that. They’re are 100% in that, and there’s so much joy and aliveness that can happen.
Ed Fowler
Right. And that’s such a good example. I think as adults we become so self conscious and aware of, are so self aware that it can be hard to appreciate and enjoy those types of experiences. It can be hard to enjoy those type of experiences. And we, using the mindfulness skill of Participating, we can actually throw ourselves in so that we can have those moments of just really being in it and having fun.
Ed Fowler
Sometimes participation is about doing something fun and fully enjoying it. Sometimes it’s about it’s not necessarily fun, it’s just really, truly being in it. For me, I find it really helpful to bring down social anxiety and self consciousness. I find it again, fully participating in something can be easier than trying to sit back and observe. So if I’m having trouble getting into the current moment, I can do it by participating. And so that is turning off that selfconscious part of my mind.
Marielle Berg
And I like that you brought in that it’s not always something fun, although it certainly can be. But we can Participate while doing a mundane activity, like washing the dishes.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
So allowing yourself to be fully with the experience of doing something like that, or any kind of household chore. So you’re throwing yourself 100% into the activity. If you’re in a classroom discussion, for example, it’s allowing yourself to participate in the conversation without worrying what your classmates think about you. I think one of the like classic examples, or at least that I think about with Participate is dancing. So if you’ve ever tried to dance and you’ve wondered or worried, how do I look? Am I doing this right? What do other people think of me? What’s your experience of dancing?
Ed Fowler
So miserable.
Marielle Berg
It’s like awful.
Ed Fowler
And like terrible. That’s a judgment, but nonetheless.
Marielle Berg
It might look terrible. I know we have a judgment here. But internally, it’s no fun. It does not feel good.
Ed Fowler
For me, like I can tell when I have that experience, or when I’m watching other people for instance, dancing. Or if you go to like an improv show, and you watch people like they just seem to really be having fun in the moment. And they are more fluid, and more interesting because they’re in it, as opposed to thinking, thinking, thinking about what they’re doing. And for me, I really appreciate the opportunities to turn that thinking off and just be in the moment.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely, I don’t think about this that much with that the skill, but that’s one of the amazing things about it, is it allows you to turn your mind off for a little bit and fully be in. So if you like sports, I think or any kind of physical activity where you can actually turn your mind off is great for this.
Ed Fowler
Exactly.
Marielle Berg
And Participate also helps if you experience feelings of alienation, or otherness, like apart from the world. So participating helps you feel like you’re a part of, not apart from. Because you’re going with the flow, and you’re kind of doing, if it’s a group activity, what others are doing. And that participating, doing the opposite, I think hurts, because it can keep you sort of forever, on the outside. Sort of like witnessing your life rather than fully being immersed in it. And that that’s painful to just be a witness or only observing your life and never sort of being fully in it.
Ed Fowler
Yeah.
Marielle Berg
Just a note about addictive behaviors. So, because sometimes people might ask, because there’s a way that addictive behaviors can feel like participating, because those kinds of behaviors can become very ritualized. So it can sometimes feel like you’re very in the present moment with your ritual around whatever the behavior is. So to remember that Participating includes acting intuitively from your Wise Mind, which means that your actions are in service of your long term goals. So in that way, our addictive behaviors, although might feel like participating, is not what we’re talking about here. It’s not a way of participating mindfully from your Wise Mind.
Ed Fowler
And I think people often describe participating in addictive behaviors as being on autopilot in a lot of ways. And that’s the opposite of mindfulness.
Marielle Berg
Yes, that’s a great way to think about it too.
Ed Fowler
So with Observing, Describing, Participating, three different and equally beneficial ways to practice Mindfulness. One moment at a time, when we can, in our everyday lives, that’s the benefit of using these skills, is that we just are able to fully engage when we notice that we need that.
Marielle Berg
Great. I echo everything you say, it’s a nice way to summarize what we’ve talked about today. Thank you, Ed.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, thank you.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s bayareadbtcc.com.