#4: The “HOW” Skills of Mindfulness
Would you like to introduce a mindfulness practice into your daily routine? Today, Ed joins Marielle once again and they continue talking about the mindfulness skills in DBT. In today’s episode, they discuss what you actually do to practice mindfulness in the DBT framework. Listen in to find out more.
In the last episode, Marielle and Ed discussed the ‘what’ skills, or the things that you do, in order to practice mindfulness. These are observing, describing, and participating. Today, they will be talking about the ‘how’ skills, which are essentially how you observe, describe, and participate, and also the qualities that you want to bring to the way that you observe, describe, and participate. Tune in now for more!
Show Highlights:
- There are three ‘how’ skills. They are non-judgmentally, one-mindfully, and effectively.
- Talking about doing things non-judgmentally.
- How the ‘how’ skills deepen the practice of mindfulness when we’re observing, describing, or participating.
- How our judgments can get in the way of our being in the moment.
- Learning to accept each moment like a blanket spread on the lawn can help us to observe without judgment.
- Why our judgments tend to create a lot of emotional suffering for us.
- Ed discusses the judgments and the resultant emotions that come up for him around rain.
- What happens when Ed is able to recognize his judgments, put them to one side, and focus on what’s actually happening.
- Ed has found that practicing non-judgmental mindfulness around rain has decreased his reactivity towards rain.
- Noticing when you’re judging and not judging yourself for the judging.
- Looking at toxic self-judgment that really causes so much emotional pain.
- Many judgments are based on inaccuracies.
- Judgments don’t help to change behavior.
- Discernment is being able to acknowledge things that are helpful or harmful, and things that might be safe or dangerous, without judgment.
- In trying to be non-judgmental, we are trying to be factual.
- Practicing one-mindfulness is about just focusing on the thing in front of us.
- How focusing on one task at a time can lead to increased productivity.
- Being fully in the moment and practicing being one-mindful is really worth the effort.
- What it takes to become effective.
- Effectiveness is really about doing what works and playing by the rules.
- You need to have goals in order to be really effective.
- When we get stuck in a place of anger or hostility, we lose sight of the longer-term goals. Mindfulness gives us a moment to cool down some of the intensity of the emotion.
Links and resources:
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#4: The “HOW” Skills of Mindfulness Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast, where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
So welcome back, Ed.
Ed Fowler
Thank you.
Marielle Berg
So we’re going to continue today with talking about the Mindfulness skills in DBT. And in our last episode, we discuss the What skills, which are what you actually do to practice mindfulness. So just as a quick recap, you Observe, you Describe, and you Participate.
Marielle Berg
And then today, we’re talking about the How skills, which are how you do the What skills. Essentially how you Observe, Describe and Participate, or what sort of qualities you want to bring to your, to observing, describing and participating. And the How skills are, there’s three of them, similar to the What skills, and the How skills are non-judgmentally, one-mindfully and effectively. So we’ll start with Non-Judgmentally. Ed you want to get started in talking about this skill?
Ed Fowler
Sure. And I think the interesting thing about these How skills is that they, we use them specifically when we’re practicing mindfulness. And they really help deepen the practice of mindfulness when we’re observing, describing or participating. And at the same time, these skills can be really helpful with so many of the DBT skills. And so Non-Judgmentalness comes up a lot in DBT. Rcognizing that we all have judgments. And oftentimes, those are automatic, our judgments can get in the way. Like our interpretations of what’s going on our assumptions about what’s happening, can increase our emotional reactivity, it can lead us to react to things in ways that we don’t need to.
Ed Fowler
And when we’re practicing mindfulness, for instance, if we’re trying to observe something, bringing our own opinions and judgments and assumptions can make it hard to focus and really be in the moment, which is the point of mindfulness. So trying to practice, being observing, for instance, Non-Judgmentally, just the facts. And one of the things that the our workbook talks about is accepting each moment like a blanket spread on the lawn. So whatever falls on the blanket falls on the blanket. Like not with judgment of like, oh, there shouldn’t be any leaves on this, or, oh, it’s raining, it’s going to be soaked. But just It’s raining. It’s, a leaf fell on the blanket. That’s a way to practice Non-Judgmentally observing what’s happening.
Marielle Berg
Right. And I think one of the reasons why this is such an important skill is that our judgments often create a lot of emotional suffering for us, because we believe our judgments to be facts. So if it’s raining, and we don’t like rain, and I know someone who doesn’t like rain.
Ed Fowler
Who would that be?
Marielle Berg
Who would that be, Ed? What, can you share a little bit now that I’ve outed you as a rain hater
Ed Fowler
I think there’s actually a word for it.
Marielle Berg
Is there? What kind of judgments come up for you? And then what kind of emotions come with the judgments around rain?
Ed Fowler
Yeah, so for me and I, who knows where this comes from, but I, when it is raining, my mind automatically goes to judgments and assumptions. Like, oh, this is terrible. I’m going to be soaking wet. I’m going to be so miserable if I have to go out into that. Everyone who is in the rain right now is totally miserable because they’re soaking wet. It’s so it’s so horrible.
Ed Fowler
And that is like just filled with assumptions, that I have no idea. I’ve certainly been in the rain and gotten wet and was not miserable. I was not soaked for the rest of the day. I know lots of people who actually like the rain and don’t mind getting wet in the rain at all. So my instinct when, you know my first thought, when I see rain is oh my gosh, terrible, horrible for me and for everyone else, full of judgment, which then increases my anger. Like I’m mad at the rain. This is where you start to see, this can get really out of control. Mad at the rain. I’m fearful of what’s going to happen if I have to go out into it. I’m frustrated that I have to deal with this. I have to do a lot of mental work to say rain is okay in order to counterbalance all those automatic judgments.
Marielle Berg
So, what if rain really isn’t okay for you? Because my thinking is with skill is that we still get to have our preferences.
Ed Fowler
And my preference is no rain. But, and I think that for me in terms of being mindful when it’s raining, just observing the rain, describing the rain, participate in walking in the rain, right? When I am able to recognize my judgments and put those to the side and just focus on it is raining, I am getting wet, my clothes are wet, and I’m cold.
Marielle Berg
And do you find that there’s a way for you to acknowledge that, like, you don’t really like that it’s not your preference?
Ed Fowler
So there’s a difference for me, if I’m able to say it is raining, I am getting wet, right? That’s very different than this is terrible, I hate this right? Those are the judgments, right? I don’t like rain, I don’t like getting wet, I can decrease my emotional reactivity by saying it is raining, I am getting wet, I will go inside and get out of the rain as soon as I can. There’s a big difference between doing that and saying, Oh, this is horrible. This is terrible.
Ed Fowler
It’s hard to imagine liking the rain. And I will say practicing Non-judgmental mindfulness around rain, I have less frustration with rain than I did before I started really consciously trying to practice nonjudgmental mindfulness around it. So it actually the reactivity has decreased. I don’t hate it as much as I did. Again, it’s really hard to imagine ever being like, oh, I love rain. You’re laughing because you know, you’ve heard me talk about it. You know that’s not happening.
Marielle Berg
Right. And that’s fine. And I thank you for talking about that so transparently. Especially because we’re recording here in California, where we’ve only recently come out of a drought. So we’re supposed to be happy when it rains.
Ed Fowler
It’s the most anti-California thing I can do.
Marielle Berg
But when we’re talking about being Non-Judgmental, it’s not that you have to switch your negative judgments to a positive judgment, or that you’re even going to get rid of your judging. Because our lot of times our brains naturally do that. So, but noticing when you’re judging and not judging yourself for the judging.
Ed Fowler
Right. And for me, rain is, well you know this, because I talk about this so much in the context of mindfulness, because it really is like, being able to notice where my mind is pulling me and pull it back. And then it pulls into, oh, this is so miserable, pull it back, it’s raining. And that helps. And it helps me be able to tolerate the rain more, and helps me sometimes actually be able to notice the feeling of rain on my body, and appreciate that. And it keeps me from just being miserable when it rains, which is how I used to be.
Marielle Berg
Yeah. And that’s what happens a lot with judgments, they keep us really stuck. And so you’re talking here about judging, looking outside, an external thing we don’t have any control over. I also think with non-judgmentally, that it can be very important for people in self-judgments or in working with toxic self-judgments that we see in our groups, in our practice that cause so much emotional pain. Those kinds of I’m bad, I’m a loser, I’m a terrible person.
Ed Fowler
Right?
Marielle Berg
I’ll never get that raise, that promotion, the significant other I want, all those kinds of roads that people can go down with self judgments.
Ed Fowler
Right. Something’s wrong with me,
Marielle Berg
Yes.
Ed Fowler
That I’m having this particular struggle. And again, you know, for me, I notice judgments when I get into or I hear other people getting into extremes. Like I’ll never change, or I always do this, or everyone thinks this about me. So anytime there’s an extreme, we’re clearly getting into judgments, because we’re almost never in that kind of extreme.
Ed Fowler
And so pulling it back to just like I am feeling what I’m feeling right now. And we’ve talked about Non-Judgmentally noticing and acknowledging judgments.
Marielle Berg
Yes.
Ed Fowler
I am judging myself right now, I am having the thought that I am always like this. It’s very different than I’m always like this, why do I always do this? Like I’m having a thought, and I’m always like this.
Marielle Berg
Right, because then you don’t necessarily have to believe that thought.
Ed Fowler
Exactly. And what I’ve found is like for me and for others, oftentimes that thought isn’t really accurate. The judgments are getting into so many judgments and interpretations, that it’s actually inaccurate. And so that I’m putting a lot of mental energy into something that’s not really factual.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And I think sometimes people feel like they need to judge themselves, especially their habits or you know, compulsive behaviors that they’re trying to change. Because if they don’t judge themselves then they won’t change. And what we find is the judgments actually don’t help. So if someone is engaged in a regular habit, or a compulsive behavior, let’s say around daily marijuana use, so judging yourself being like, oh my god, I’m such a loser. I’m a stoner, I’m wasting my life. What’s wrong with me isn’t helpful and actually changing the behavior.
Ed Fowler
I hear this so much where people come in, and they talk about the way that they talk to themselves. And it’s something that they’ve been practicing for years, it’s very much a habit of like, snap out of it, get over it, what’s wrong with you, just quit it. And, again, when we start to look at it and apply Non-Judgmentalness, we can recognize that that doesn’t help. It feels like it helps. Like I, in order to motivate myself, I have to be tough on myself. But that actually, for me, I know it’s unmotivating. Because if I’m already a loser, why bother trying?
Marielle Berg
Right. And I think the motivation that can happen when we’re beating ourselves up and really judging ourselves that way, is a short lived. So maybe, you know, if you’re judging yourself a ton, because you’re not getting to the gym, and you really want to do that. Maybe it’ll get you to the gym that day. But for long term sustainable change, it’s coming from a place of self-flagellation. It usually doesn’t work, or I have never actually seen it work.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, me either.
Marielle Berg
Yeah.
Ed Fowler
Well, I think one of the things that I mentioned earlier that we try to point out a lot is don’t judge our judging. As human beings, our minds are built to think, they’re built to judge. They’re built to sort out what works for us and what doesn’t work. And so we’re going to judge, so noticing the judging without saying, oh, you’re judging again, you’re being so judgmental again, there you go. Again, that’s a form of judgment. Sounds like I’m noticing that I’m feeling very judgmental about the rain, or whatever it might be.
Marielle Berg
I think about what’s not judging, you’re judging about the difference between judgment and discernment. So we want to be able to acknowledge things that are helpful or harmful, and things that might be safe or dangerous, without judgment, because again, as we’re talking about, it’s not very useful, but discerning, you know, speeding, just to talk about rain, if I’m speeding in my car, and it’s pouring rain, that is probably dangerous. So there’s discernment there.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And that’s different than flat out judgments.
Ed Fowler
Right. And again, we, when we’re looking at being non-judgmental, we’re trying to be factual, right?
Marielle Berg
Yes.
Ed Fowler
So speeding in the rain is more dangerous, is a fact.
Marielle Berg
Right.
Ed Fowler
Right? Whereas, speeding in the rain is a sign that I’m a thoughtless careless person, that’s a judgment. A fact would be, speeding in the rain will increase my risk and danger, if I don’t pay attention, that is thoughtless and careless, there’s a qualitative difference in that.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And if only I could be so non-judgmental with my significant other, when they’re speeding in the rain. Usually it comes out as, what is wrong with you, you’re a crazy driver. And that does not go over well. So no.
Ed Fowler
Judgmentalness in the car with a significant other is a real test of your willingness to practice DBT skills.
Marielle Berg
It is, I feel like we could do
Ed Fowler
a whole podcast about how to deal with driving with a significant other.
Marielle Berg
We might want to do that bringing, in all the skills.
Ed Fowler
We might have to.
Marielle Berg
That’s advanced DBT skills.
Ed Fowler
Beyond my level for sure.
Marielle Berg
Might be beyond my level too, we’ll have to study for that.
Marielle Berg
All right, so let’s switch gears and talk about the skill of One-Mindfully, which is, as it sounds. It means doing one thing at a time, which in our multitasking world is getting harder and harder. So when we’re practicing one-mindfully, we’re just focusing on the thing that’s in front of us.
Marielle Berg
And I think one of the things that can get in the way for people and being One-Mindful is the sense that they have to multitask. That there’s so much to do, they have to be doing sort of 10 things at once. And I find when I can be One-Mindful, which means I’m focusing on one thing, giving my full attention to whatever I’m doing, that I can be as productive and less scattered.
Marielle Berg
One of the things that people can sometimes worry about when we’re talking about being One-Mindful is that they won’t be productive, they won’t get a lot done. Like I have to be doing three things at once or I’m not going to be able to finish my to do list, or do well at my job, or take care of my home life. And actually what can happen is if you give your full attention to just the one thing that you’re doing, you can still get a lot done and still be incredibly productive in a much calmer manner. Without feelingfrazzled, without having your attention split in three different directions.
Ed Fowler
I think it’s very difficult to practice mindful Observing or Describing or Participating, doing more than one thing at once. And so when we’re trying to be mindful and just be in the present moment, again, I think it’s for many of us, including me, it’s a habit to do multiple things, you know, to be looking at my phone while I’m having a conversation. And or while I’m watching TV or even, for instance, listening to music while I’m doing dishes, which is nice. Just doing dishes is a more in the moment experience. And so sometimes that’s what I’m going for, is to really practice being in this one particular moment. And if I’m doing dishes, doing dishes. If I’m eating, eating. These are some of the things that we talk about. It’s like, just doing one thing at a time is really good practice for me, because I so often am doing 2, 3, 4 things at one time. And like you said, sometimes really, ineffectively.
Marielle Berg
Right. It’s so much harder to be effective, and to access Wise Mind when we’re doing several things at once, because our attention is scattered. So this is really a concentration kind of skill,.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
But we’re, and I feel like there’s so much in our modern world with technology and phones that are really decreasing our concentration.
Ed Fowler
I just think that it is, when I’m trying to be mindful and be in the present moment, observing, describing participating, doing just one thing at a time really is a struggle. And it’s worth it, it’s worth the effort to try.
Ed Fowler
I appreciate when I’m able to do it. And for me, quite honestly, I can do it for a minute, it’s hard for me to concentrate on one thing for more than a minute or so. And I appreciate the practice. I’m glad when I do it.
Marielle Berg
And even if you’re doing it for a minute, and you do that 20 times a day, you’ve been mindful for those 20 minutes.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, and so much more concentrated and able to appreciate what I’m doing when I have those moments that I’m able to do that.
Marielle Berg
There’s a way that the skill, that One-Mindfully can make life much richer, when you can really just focus on what you’re doing, rather than doing several things at once. Because things fly by and you miss or we miss the experience.
Ed Fowler
Yeah.
Marielle Berg
So the final How skill is Effectively, and we talk a lot in our skills group and in our individual DBT work about effectiveness. So when you Observe, Describe and Participate, you want to think about effectiveness. Can you do those skills effectively? Meaning, to be able to assess if you’re being effective with whatever you’re doing. You have to be aware of what you want in the situation. Like, what are your goals?
Marielle Berg
And to do that, Effectiveness is really about doing what works and playing by the rules. Not sort of cutting off your nose to spite your face, kind of thing. So that means following the rules, even if you don’t agree with them. Which doesn’t mean we’re supposed to be placid doormats, who just who never push for social change, or change in organizations, or in our family structures, but recognizing that there’s a time and a place to push for change. And that playing by the rules, until we can think of a more effective way potentially to change rules in service of our well being.
Ed Fowler
And I think that, you know, the bottom line of Effectiveness is, what is my goal? So that whatever I’m doing, I’m moving myself towards whatever my goal is. So when it comes to, for instance, mindfulness practice, if my goal is to be able to be in the present moment, you know, just for a moment, then being effective would mean maybe turning my phone off, or putting it to the side so that I can concentrate.
Ed Fowler
If I’m trying to be effective in an interpersonal relationship, it’s like, what do I want this relationship to be, and what do I want it to be about? So I’m going to change the way I approach a conversation, for instance, in order to really, you know, meet the goal that I have for the relationship. So with Effectiveness, we’re always going back to What’s my goal? What am I going for? And whatever I do, I want it to be in that direction. Not like you said, doing something that is like momentarily relieving to me. But that does not get me towards my goals.
Marielle Berg
When we teach this skill, I often think about air travel. So dealing with the TSA, or everything that’s involved with air travel, and flights getting canceled at the last minute, or delays. That throwing a temper tantrum, or getting angry, or arguing back oftentimes is not effective if what we want is to get to our destination, as sort of calmly as we can.
Ed Fowler
Right. I think for me, for instance, with mindfulness practice, I try to have a little bit of mindful time in the morning. And I you know, my ideal is to just sit and look out the window and be mindful of what I see, watch the sunrise or, you know, see what’s going on out there, which would be a One-Mindful way of practicing Observing, is just look out the window and observe. And because I find it really helpful to be mindful first thing in the morning, many mornings, it’s like I am not going to be able to tolerate sitting here looking out the window for any period of time, my mind is too busy. I’ve got too much going on. So sometimes I want to listen to music while I do that.
Ed Fowler
And while that is not One-Mindful, I’m looking out the window, and I’m listening to music, it is Effective, because it’s getting me to do some mindfulness practice that I might not do if I said, just sit and look out the window, and there’s no way I’m going to be able to concentrate to do that. So that’s an example of how we can use Effectiveness to practice mindfulness in a way that is getting me towards my goal, for instance, of having a little bit of mindful time first thing in the morning.
Marielle Berg
Well, that’s an example of doing what works and moving away from rigidity. Which can sometimes keep us from doing what’s most effective. It’s those times when we can get stuck in being right, instead of being effective, to prove a point, often that can work against what our goals are. And I think it can also be related to willfulness, like things have to go my way,
Ed Fowler
Right. Being able to pull back and say, like, okay, I want things to go my way, this is kind of a more Non-Judgmental approach, like I want things to go my way. And in order to be effective and meet my goals, I might have to do something different right now.
Marielle Berg
Yeah.
Ed Fowler
And that’s where mindfulness is so valuable is being able to have that little bit of space, being able to focus on just this one moment, so that we can evaluate: what’s going to help me the most right now? And that’s where we can bring in some Non-Judgmentalness, some Effectiveness, that might get us closer to what we really want instead of reacting.
Marielle Berg
Yes. So I have an example. I was talking to a friend recently, who is in an argument with her elderly father. And they have certain relationship dynamics that probably will never change. And he’s aging, and she’s getting up there in age too. And there are certain dynamics that are likely immovable. So she was in an argument with him, I think it ended poorly. And she doesn’t want to be estranged from him, she wants a relationship with him, and to her mother, who’s still alive, and other parts of the family that she sees when she’s with him. But she felt like in this argument or disagreement that she was really right, and she doesn’t want to have to apologize.
Marielle Berg
And so we had a long discussion about what’s most effective. So your father’s almost 80, he’s probably never going to change these dynamics, he’s likely not going to apologize. Is there a way that you can hold on to your self respect, let go of some of the anger. Does she need to apologize? Is there a way to sort of begin a discussion with him while holding on to herself respect in order to reach her goals, which are to have a relationship with him? So it’s sort of, there’s many layers here. But I think that when we get stuck in that angry or hostile place, which is where she was for a while, we lose sight of the longer term goals. And she’s like, my dad, who knows how much longer he’s going to live?
Ed Fowler
Right. And sometimes in those situations, like, it’s easier to say, ah, I recognize that holding on to what I want, which is to say I’m right, and I’m not apologizing, may affect my relationship with somebody who might not be around for much longer, so we can see it a little more clearly.
Ed Fowler
But this can apply to so many situations where when we’re in the moment, we may not see clearly. And we may just want what we want, and believe that what I want is the right way. And mindfulness gives us a moment to step out of that to just focus and maybe cool down some of the intensity of the emotion, and then take a look at okay, what’s going to be effective from here?
Marielle Berg
Absolutely.
Ed Fowler
So just to recap the How skills that we went over, Non-Judgmentally, One-Mindfully and Effectively.
Marielle Berg
Yes, thank you.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s bayareadbtcc.com.