#5: Using the DEARMAN Framework to Say No
Do you find it hard to say ‘no’, or get what you want in your relationships? Today, Marielle and Ed will be talking about interpersonal effectiveness. The interpersonal effectiveness skills in DBT are practical and they are really helpful in giving us a structure for obtaining what we want and need in relationships. These skills also provide us with a structure for saying ‘no’, while maintaining our self-respect. This is something that many of us seem to struggle with, so tune in now, to find out more.
“When emotions are high, we’re not going to be as effective in asking or saying ‘no’ because the emotion is going to cloud things.”
~Ed
In DBT, it’s important to think about balance when trying to ask for something or to say ‘no’ to something in relationships. In today’s podcast, Marielle and Ed will be introducing the interpersonal effectiveness module, and they will be discussing one of the module’s core skills. Listen in, to find out what they have to share about these really effective interpersonal skills.
Show Highlights:
- In DBT, when looking at interpersonal effectiveness skills, we’re trying to balance different needs and priorities.
- Meeting our objectives, maintaining the relationship, and maintaining self-respect are all important things to consider.
- DBT helps people figure out which of the three goals has top priority, in order to help people figure out which skill to use.
- Sometimes, people are not clear about what they want from a situation.
- How to look for the middle and avoid the extremes in relationships.
- Thinking about some of the hard conversations in advance can be super helpful.
- When emotions are high, we’re not able to be as effective in asking or saying ‘no’ because the emotion may cloud things
- When our emotions are high, the tendency is to focus only on the short-term and we forget our long-term goals.
- Some common myths that people have about interpersonal effectiveness and relationships.
- Looking at common interpersonal myths such as: I don’t deserve to get what we want or need or I should always be willing to sacrifice my own needs for those of others.
- It’s hard for some people to tolerate others feeling upset with them, so they find it hard to ask for something or say ‘no’.
- Some of the myths people who place their self-respect first all the time tend to believe. People should just know what I need so I shouldn’t have to ask is a common one.
- Learning the skill of Radical Acceptance and how that relates to relationships.
- Ed and Marielle go through the foundational skill of the interpersonal effectiveness module in DBT. It’s the acronym DEARMAN. D=describe, E=express, A=assert or ask, R=reinforce, M=mindful, A=appear confident, N=negotiate.
- Ed and Marielle bring DEARMAN to life with an example.
- Marielle gives some real-life examples of DEARMAN from their own working relationship.
- In the relationships where we are most comfortable and we let our guard down, is often where we are the least thoughtful. It really helps to have a structure to hold on to and to help us be more thoughtful about these types of interactions.
- Writing out a brief script for yourself before having a hard conversation can really help you to remain focused.
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#5: Using the DEARMAN Framework to Say No Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast, where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
Welcome back, Ed.
Ed Fowler
Thank you.
Marielle Berg
We’re going to be talking about Interpersonal Effectiveness today and introducing the module to listeners and getting into one of the core skills of this module.
Ed Fowler
That sounds great, I find the Interpersonal Effectiveness skills in DBT to be so practical, and so helpful in giving a structure for getting what we want and what we need in relationships.
Marielle Berg
Yes, I agree. And also, related to that is giving us a structure for saying no,
Ed Fowler
Yeah.
Marielle Berg
while also maintaining our self respect, and maybe even improving our relationships, which is something a lot of people struggle with.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, I appreciate how in DBT, when we are looking at Interpersonal Effectiveness skills, we’re always trying to balance getting our objectives met. So being able to ask for what we need or be able to say no, which is also equally important, while also maintaining relationships, and maintaining our self respect, that all three are important, meeting our objectives, maintaining the relationship, maintaining self respect, all three are important.
Ed Fowler
We have a lot of different ways to approach asking for things or saying no, based on which might have more priority. Is maintaining the relationship really important, and we want to emphasize that? Is maintaining our self respect, really important? But I appreciate how we’re always balancing all three.
Marielle Berg
Right. So in any interpersonal interaction, we’re thinking about all three of those kind of goals, like what do I, what matters about the situation? Is it, what matters the most?
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
Is it getting what I want and need, or saying no? Like, that’s the objective? Is it maintaining the relationship or maybe even improving the relationship?
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
Or is it my self respect? And so as you’re saying, they’re all always important. But in the DBT world, were helping people figure out which of those goals has top priority to help people figure out what skill to use.
Marielle Berg
And let’s talk a little bit now about some of the things that get in the way of being effective with other people. So I think some of the, or maybe one of the most common things we might see is related to what we just were talking about a moment ago, is that folks often aren’t very clear on what they want out of a situation. So maybe they know they want to speak to their boss about something happening at work, but they’re not sure is that they get unclear about how to balance what their needs are and what the other person’s needs are. And that can make things a bit muddied. And we might find people falling into different camps, where they might ask for too much, or might even veer into the land of being more demanding.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
Or on the other side, they might go to not asking for anything, or asking for too little, like struggling to really assert themselves.
Ed Fowler
Right. Or I mean, on the other hand, saying no to everything, just saying no, I have to maintain my boundaries at all times. Versus on the other end of the spectrum, like saying yes to everything, always giving in, never feeling like it’s okay to say no. And we’re always trying to look for the middle. We’re not trying to get into those extremes, and see what’s the balance here.
Marielle Berg
Right. So trying to help people move away from those more rigid stances.
Marielle Berg
Right.
Marielle Berg
So there can be more flexibility,
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
and balance, as you said.
Ed Fowler
But like you said, I think knowing what I want is important and taking the time to sit down and say, What do I want out of this interaction, to have that clarity is going to make us much more effective in getting that.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s what’s so great, also about the DEAR MAN skill that we’re going to talk a little bit about today, that it requires people to kind of sit down and think some about some of these hard conversations in advance.
Ed Fowler
Yes.
Marielle Berg
Which increases the likelihood they’ll go a bit more smoothly.
Ed Fowler
Totally.
Marielle Berg
So another thing that can really get in the way of being as effective as you want to be when you’re with other people, is intense emotions, which we’ve already talked a bunch about in previous episodes.
Ed Fowler
Now, when emotions are high, then, I know for me and for most people, we’re not going to be as effective in asking or saying no, as the emotion is going to cloud things.
Marielle Berg
Right. So sometimes the emotion is all you can see, if you’re really angry or afraid. It can be super hard to sort of have that executive functioning on board to help you articulate clearly.
Ed Fowler
And its own thing, but related, is that if emotions are high, we can forget our long term goals and only show up focused on the short term of like, I am having this emotion, I need to do this right now, versus thinking about what are our long term goals for ourselves for the relationship. But always I think, thinking long term versus just strictly short term can be valuable. Because if we’re not, then we’re not going to stay on track with what’s important to us.
Marielle Berg
Right, right. So if we forget our long term goals, which say, for example, is to have, you know, a loving and committed relationship, but in the moment, we’re super angry, our short term goal might be to say, F U to someone who really care about.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
We want some relief, and we want some expression of that anger to come out.
Ed Fowler
Totally, yep.
Marielle Berg
And then afterwards, you know, an hour later, you’re like, oh, shoot, I wish I hadn’t said that.
Ed Fowler
Right, totally.
Marielle Berg
And so additionally, another thing that can get in the way, I think, are common myths that people have about Interpersonal Effectiveness. And I thought that we could talk a little bit about some of those myths.
Ed Fowler
I think it’s helpful in the DBT workbook that we use, that most DBT programs use in our skills groups, it’s nice to look at, like, what are some of these common myths that we all have about relationships? Because if we don’t examine those, then we’re going to be living out those myths. And maybe those aren’t so effective or helpful for us.
Marielle Berg
Right. So I think one of the myths that we hear often is I don’t deserve to get what I want or need.
Ed Fowler
And again, if we feel like we don’t deserve, if we believe that, then we’re not going to ask. So we don’t even ask for what we want or really need. We don’t say no, when we need to say no, because I don’t deserve what I to get what I want or need. And that’s I think, I don’t think most people walk around thinking, Oh, I don’t deserve it. But that can really underlie a lot of how we approach relationships, is that belief.
Marielle Berg
Right. So that might not be a thought that people are conscious of that they actually have, but it can inform why they’re not speaking up, right? And asserting or saying no, this can be sort of like an underlying belief system that I think, a fair amount of people might live with, I don’t deserve to get what I want or need.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, I think another big myth is that I should be willing to sacrifice my own needs for others, that it’s a noble thing, to sacrifice my own needs for someone else. That the height of being effective in interpersonal relationships is the willingness to sacrifice myself for others. And the problem with that is that then oftentimes, we can develop resentments, the relationships can become very imbalanced. And that I don’t think that it’s really effective to always sacrifice my needs for someone else.
Marielle Berg
Right. So when we get into that black and white territory, that’s where we run into problems. And I think this can be passed down or communicated in different families in different ways.
Ed Fowler
Totally.
Marielle Berg
With some families in different cultures and ethnic groups may be having this more strongly than others.
Ed Fowler
Yeah. And I think that’s a good point that, like, so many of our beliefs come from our background, from our families, from our culture, things that we just pick up wherever we grow up. And some things are really emphasized more heavily than others, depending on where you grew up, or what your family structure was. And so sometimes, like there is a strong emphasis of like, it is a really good thing to sacrifice for others. And sometimes that is true.
Marielle Berg
Right?
Ed Fowler
And always true, is not that helpful or effective. And that’s where being able to examine some of this a little bit can be helpful.
Marielle Berg
Yes, absolutely, right. We don’t want to get into that extreme place again. And thank God that we have people who sacrifice for others, at times, save people from terrible situations and burning buildings. And if you’re always doing that, and ignoring your own needs, you’re probably not going to have the life you want.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
So another one that we can hear with some regularity is if I ask for something, or say no, I can’t stand it if someone gets upset with me. So this is we see this when people struggle with the reaction that the other person has, when we’re making a request, or we’re saying no to them. So I think this is really about a challenge with tolerating someone else not being happy with us, which sometimes does happen.
Ed Fowler
Right? And I think that there, it’s a common thing for people to feel like, oh my gosh, I will feel so bad if this person is upset with me for asking for something, or for saying no. And the reality is that sometimes they’re not going to be upset and we censor ourselves, because we’re assuming they’ll be upset and we don’t know. But the other thing is that it is painful if someone’s upset with me, that is hard. Most people don’t want that. At the same time, like we’re not going to get what we want in relationships if we just assume I can’t tolerate someone being upset with me if I ask for something.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, I love the way you really validated how bad it feels when someone, especially with someone that we care about, is angry or upset with us. We often don’t want to say no to them.
Ed Fowler
For me, I can veer into like, even if like some random salesperson is upset with me. I’m like, Oh, I better not ask, I don’t want to upset them and – what, hold on. So I think for some of us, we do veer into that territory very easily.
Marielle Berg
Well, you and I should go shopping, because I’m probably the opposite.
Ed Fowler
I might need you.
Marielle Berg
I might need you to,
Ed Fowler
Or I can practice my own skills, but whatever.
Marielle Berg
Let’s switch a little bit and talk about some myths that maybe are on the different ends of the spectrum with Interpersonal Effectiveness that are more about people really putting their self respect first all the time.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
So one that we hear about is I shouldn’t have to ask or say, no, they should just know what I want, and do it. Like people should just know. And if I have to ask them, you know, what’s the point of that.
Ed Fowler
And again, some of these things are, there’s a grain of realism in it of like, it’s really nice when other people anticipate our needs, when other people know what we want. In close relationships, oftentimes, we can anticipate what someone will want and expect them to do the same. The should in that statement is where we get into trouble. Because it’s not possible to always anticipate what someone else wants or needs. It’s not possible for other people to always know what I want, without me having to say it.
Marielle Berg
Yes, and wishing that people could mind read, which is very understandable, it would feel great if everyone would just know, isn’t realistic, and people can’t. And it doesn’t mean that people around us don’t love or care for us if they’re not reading our minds. It’s up to us to kind of let people know, right? And I think related to that is another myth that’s around other people should just know that their behavior is hurting my feelings, and I shouldn’t have to tell them.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
So similar kind of thing where I shouldn’t have to communicate.
Ed Fowler
Right. And we’d have this skill of Radical Acceptance of just accepting reality as it is. And I think this is where this kind of bumps into that of like, yeah, it would be great if people knew if they were doing something that hurt my feelings. Obviously, they don’t. So it doesn’t really matter whether they should or shouldn’t, they don’t know, they’re not getting it. I’m gonna have to say something.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, absolutely. So now that we’ve laid some of the groundwork of some of the things that can get in the way of you being as effective as you’d like to be in your relationships, and some of the common myths that crop up, let’s dive into the foundational skill of the Interpersonal Effectiveness module in DBT, which is a long acronym. And it’s, the acronym is, DEAR MAN. So we’re going to go through each of those letters and talk about what they stand for and give examples.
Ed Fowler
So for those who are not familiar with DBT, DBT, is full of acronyms.
Ed Fowler
And so the reason is, is because it helps to remember. By having a simple acronym, it can help us to remember what are we shooting for here? So with the DEAR MAN, maybe I can just go through and describe what each letter stands for. So the D stands for Describe, where we are describing the current situation to the person who were asking for something from our saying no to. The E stands for Express, we’re expressing our feelings and opinions about the situation. The A stands for Assert, or our asking for what we want or saying no if we need to. And the R stands for Reinforce where we’re reinforcing for the other person, what’s in it for them to give us what we want,
Marielle Berg
Acronym-rich.
Marielle Berg
Or to respect our no.
Ed Fowler
Or to respect our no, yep.
Marielle Berg
So I’ll do the MAN. So the M is for staying Mindful. So there’s two components for that. One is called the broken record. And that’s when you keep asking for or saying no, or expressing your opinion, kind of over and over and you don’t get derailed by ignoring attacks, which is the other part of staying mindful and going off on different tangent. And we’ll give it a couple of examples to explain how this can happen. So you want to stay mindful.
Marielle Berg
The A is to Appear confident. So that is around, so appearing confident is about how you hold your body when you’re talking to someone. Are you making eye contact? Are you slumping your shoulders and turning away and what tone of voice are you using? Because the nonverbal and how we hold ourselves energetically can communicate a lot, so we want to appear confident and I love that it’s appear and not necessarily be, so we can fake it, if we need to.
Ed Fowler
If necessary, yep.
Marielle Berg
And the N, lastly, of the MAN is to Negotiate. Being willing to give to get and to potentially reduce your request or compromise with someone else.
Ed Fowler
And the whole point of this is it’s a helpful framework to guide us in asking for what we want or saying no, to keep us on track, and to be as effective as possible in meeting our objectives. So to give you an example of what this looks like, in real life, and one example that comes up a lot is when you want someone to let you know if they’re going to be late. So that if you’re in a relationship with someone, and you want them to let you know, text or phone call, that they’re going to be late so that you can plan what you’re doing, and you know when to anticipate them arriving. And some people are not very good about that, even if you ask, they still are not good about communicating. So an example of using the DEAR MAN would be to describe the situation, like you agreed that you would send me a text or call me if you were going to be late and you didn’t do it.
Marielle Berg
Right. And so the reason why we describe is because, let’s say this has happened repeatedly with your significant other.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And so a way that people can often approach this is so then their significant other comes home and they haven’t, late, and they haven’t let them know. And they might start off the bat yelling at them, or pouting and giving them the silent treatment because they’re angry. So this is a way to avoid either of those two extremes, which we know or most people will know, probably from experience, that usually doesn’t go very well, and can make the other person very defensive.
Marielle Berg
So we start off with the D or the describe to orient the other person to what you want to talk about. So ideally, you sit down and you think about this, and you kind of write it out a little bit and take some notes before you approach your significant other. And it’s, you don’t sort of get them the minute they walk in the door. So we’re thinking about the time and place. And the D helps set the stage sort of.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And sometimes you don’t need to do that if you’re already in the middle of a conversation. But if you’re sort of setting aside time to talk about something that’s been bothering you, you describe, okay. And so the E is where you express your feelings and opinions about the situation. Because again, we don’t want to assume that the other person knows how we feel.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
So we might say something like, it’s really hard for me when I don’t know, when you’re coming home, honey, I’m kind of sitting around and waiting.
Ed Fowler
Right. And so again, like a very simple description of what the issue is that you want to talk about and expressing how you feel about it, or what’s hard about it for you, just clearly orient the other person to like, why are we talking about this, what’s going on. And so we get them acclimated to like, here’s the issue, here’s how I feel about it. And then we can move into asserting what we want. And so that’s where we would ask for what’s important. Like, I would really like for you to text me if you’re going to be late.
Marielle Berg
And this is an area where I see a lot of people getting tripped up, where there is not a clear ask or a clear no. And so they muddy the waters a bit. They don’t directly ask for what they want or need they kind of talk around it. So the assert is to very clearly ask for what you want or need or say a very clear no. In this example, it’s asking for that contact if they’re going to be late.
Ed Fowler
Right. And I know, you know, for me, I can easily get into a lot of words, to soften what I’m trying to ask for, soften saying no, when the reality is that just muddies the waters and makes it harder for the other person to understand what I’m really asking for.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely. Right. So short and sweet.
Ed Fowler
Short and sweet. Like, I would like to text if you’re going to be late.
Marielle Berg
Right? That’s it. And then the R is to reinforce. So this is thinking about like kind of what’s in it for the other person, potentially finding positive effects, if they give you what you’re asking for, or if they respect your no. And if needed, you can kind of talk about some negative consequences of you, of them not giving you what you want or need. But at least for the purposes of what we’re doing, the example we’re talking about today is a reinforcement could be I think our relationship would be a lot stronger and I would be calmer if you could just give me a heads up when you have to work late.
Ed Fowler
Right, yeah. And I think one of the things when we’re talking about this in group people sometimes think that the reinforce means to reinforce my assertion, what I’m asking for, but really the reinforce is we’re reinforcing the other person’s behavior ingiving us what we want. We’re reinforcing what is in it for them. Because most of us are more likely to do something for someone else if we also have a benefit. So we’re asserting what we want. And we’re saying and you too, can benefit from what I’m asking.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, this is going to help you too. Thank you for clarifying. Yes, it’s not doing our ask even stronger.
Ed Fowler
Right, yeah.
Marielle Berg
Trying to reinforce the other person for helping us out. And so the next one, do you want to talk about the mindful part? As we go into the MAN?
Ed Fowler
Yeah, so the M in the MAN part is being mindful, staying mindful and not getting distracted. So if the other person comes back with arguments about why they did what they did, or why they shouldn’t have to give us what we’re asking for, or bringing up things like, well, you don’t, you know, contact me if you’re going to be late, we stay mindful about what our assertion is. And we just like that, we have thing about a broken record of just keep repeating, I would really like a text. It would help me a lot, if you will give me a text. So that we’re not distracted by anything that the other person might say.
Marielle Berg
And this is where these kinds of conversations can go off the rails and arguments can ensue, because the other person might be feel on the defensive.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And may think about all the times that you didn’t do what they asked you to do, and kind of go down that road. And they may have valid points, which you can talk about another time. But then you really lose sight of the original ask.
Ed Fowler
Right. And I think that staying mindful is so helpful to be able to acknowledge, like, Yeah, that might be something we need to talk about in the future. For now, I would really like a text if you’re going to be late.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, yeah. And then the A appear confident. So you want to, as I talked about a moment ago, you want to hold your body in such a way that you have a right to ask for what you want and need. You’re not kind of stammering or like saying a lot of I’m sorrys, as you’re asking for what you want to need. You’re not whispering or staring at the floor, or any of those kinds of things. So appearing as confident as you can and how you hold yourself in your tone of voice as possible.
Ed Fowler
And on the other hand, not being really aggressive. Like I have to take a really firm aggressive stance in order to get what I need. It’s like no, I’m confident, I know that this is doable. So I’m calm, I’m cool and collected and I’m clear, I’m making good eye contact, I’m standing up straight. This is totally doable.
Marielle Berg
Right, so you’re talking about like a really kind of grounded place, rather than how people may sometimes go to the other extreme of trying to push their agenda really hard.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
Or feeling like they have to go more to being aggressive.
Ed Fowler
And it gets into those myths of like, either I have to appear really small and make the other person want to do something for me, because they feel bad for me, or I have to appear big and huge and powerful and strong so they’re afraid. But really appearing confident is about like this is totally reasonable, what I’m asking for is reasonable.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely. So you don’t have to be helpless or a bully.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
So the N with negotiate is being willing to give to get. So if your significant other in our example, comes back to you and says, you know, when I’m working late, I get so caught up in my projects that I just totally forget to text. So it’s sort of brainstorming with them, like, okay, could you put a reminder in your phone earlier? Or a reminder in your phone at like, 5pm? If you know, you have to be there till 8, like, text my sweetie.
Ed Fowler
Right, right. Or even being able to say like, Okay, I understand that you get really wrapped up in your work. Would it be okay for me to text you and say, Are you, how’s it going?
Marielle Berg
Yeah.
Ed Fowler
So that could be I’m willing to do that to help both of us in the situation. So that we’re not like, again, we want to assert what we want. We need to be flexible. Because if it’s just like, here’s what I want, and there’s no, I’m going to be mindful and appear confident, and we’re not leaving until I get what I want. That’s not always going to work, because sometimes it’s just not feasible.
Marielle Berg
Right. So this is, again, the flexible part and being willing to negotiate and compromise, which is a part of all relationships.
Ed Fowler
Yes. So to use an example from our work together, where we co-lead skills group a couple of times a week, and we share responsibility for setting the room up. But you know, sometimes one of us might have some physical issue that makes it hard to set up the room. And so for instance, if my back was really hurting, I might need to ask for Marielle, for you to set up the room by yourself. So I would want to describe what the situation is, how I’m feeling, which is the express, assert what I need, very clearly and succinctly, and then reinforce what’s in it for you.
Ed Fowler
So an example of that might be I know that we share responsibility for setting up the group room before group and I have been having some problems with my back. And it’s been really hard for me to lift heavy things and setting up the group room has kind of been painful. So I would really appreciate it if you could set up the room by yourself for the near future. And I think that would really help me be more focused in presenting during the skills group. And I’m glad to get back to sharing responsibility when my back is feeling better.
Marielle Berg
But Ed, I already do so much for you. I don’t think that’s fair. I think you’re being really selfish.
Ed Fowler
I understand that you do a lot and because my back is really hurting, it’s so hard for me. I would really appreciate it if you could set up the room on your own for a little while.
Marielle Berg
When my back was hurting, I still set up the room. I didn’t say anything.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, and my back is really been hurting. So it would help me a lot if you could set up the room on your own.
Marielle Berg
Well, you know, it’s hard for me to to set up the room on my own. So is there any way we can negotiate?
Ed Fowler
Definitely, like I can easily move the smaller items around instead of folding chairs and that kind of thing. If you were able to do the bigger items, would that work for you?
Marielle Berg
Yeah, I guess I could do that for a while.
Ed Fowler
Great.
Marielle Berg
Wow.
Ed Fowler
Poor Marielle. You sound like such a jerk.
Marielle Berg
I know. I’m like, Oh, I don’t like this. I don’t want to run group with me anymore.
Ed Fowler
And the thing is that this is something that has come up. And you know, like, when Marielle is asking, or I am asking, we’re always more than happy to help each other, so it’s a little awkward, to have to pretend like we’re really stubborn about it, but.
Marielle Berg
To give a push back. Like, for the most part in working relationships where there’s more of like a professional role that people are showing up in, people tend to be on their better behavior. The times when it can get a little bit more ugly, I think in these exchanges is in our closest relationships.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
With the people, you know, we’re most intimately involved with, because our guard is down. And that’s when we might pull out some of the things I was trying there like, well, what about what you didn’t do, or right, bringing up old grudges and resentments.
Ed Fowler
Right, right. And that’s where I think that in the relationships where we are most comfortable and let our guard down is where we’re often the least thoughtful. And we can get into these patterns of arguing that are not effective, that are not helpful. And the, having the focus of the DEAR MAN can be so helpful in clearly saying what we want what we need, being able to say no very clearly, and having a structure to hold on to, so that we can be more thoughtful about these types of interactions.
Marielle Berg
Mhm. And so we’ll link in the show notes to the page in the DBT skills workbook where people can find the DEAR MAN and have it sort of laid out more clearly. And eventually, as you sort of learn, and really integrate this way of thinking about interpersonal relationships in your life, it’ll more naturally kind of inform how you talk with others.
Marielle Berg
But in the beginning, I think it’s super helpful to sit down with a concrete problem that you’ve been having with someone and write out a little script. That doesn’t mean when you deliver it, you have to have it in front of you and be like robotic, I’m doing a DEAR MAN on you. Right? But just to kind of get your thoughts sort of centered. What’s going on here? What am I asking for? How might I be willing to negotiate if I need to?
Ed Fowler
And I know for me when something is really important, sitting down and writing out a little very brief script for myself, I usually don’t deliver it in exactly the wording that I write down. I don’t remember ever holding a piece of paper and reading it to someone. But it does help me to focus and I’m more likely to get closer to the DEAR MAN if I prepare ahead.
Marielle Berg
Right, right. And then you can be aware of some of the, with the stay mindful, like the broken record and ignoring attacks, that when those come out at you, you can be like, oh, right. I remember this is a thing that can happen. Let me stay on point with what I’m trying to communicate.
Ed Fowler
Yep.
Marielle Berg
Well, thanks Ed, it was great talking with you today about the skills.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, always good to talk about these really helpful Interpersonal Effectiveness skills.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s bayareadbtcc.com.