#7: Understanding Validation in Relationships and Why We All Need It
Do you know how important it is to feel validated? Validation lets us know that we have been heard and understood. We all have the need to be understood by others, especially those closest to us. Today Marielle and Ed discuss the importance of validation in all interpersonal relationships. They describe the different levels of validation and they take a look at the detrimental effects of being invalidated by someone. Tune in now to find out more.
Validation is a necessary part of all relationships, from the most intimate relationships to friendships and work relationships. Marielle and Ed start today’s episode with a definition of what invalidation is to give a sense of what it looks like and talk about how painful it feels to be on the receiving end of it. Listen in today, to find out what validation is and why it matters so much in relationships.
“Invalidation is when someone else negates to your private internal experience.” – Marielle Berg
Show Highlights:
- Marielle explains what invalidation is and what it looks like.
- Being invalidated feels painful and it can cause people to become defensive and angry.
- It is possible to validate someone’s experience without having to agree with them.
- What validation is and why it matters so much in relationships.
- Validation is the best way to connect and understand someone else’s personal experiences.
- Why and how validation acts as a social lubricant.
- Differentiating intent versus impact.
- How validation can prevent defensiveness.
- How validation differs from simply agreeing.
- The benefits of starting hard conversations with validation.
- The different levels of validation.
- Paying attention is the first and most basic level of validation.
- The next level of validation is reflecting back what you have heard without judgment.
- The third level of validation is called “reading minds”. This is a more advanced level of validation. It involves noticing and sensing what is going on with the other person without them having to tell us. It is powerful but it can also be tricky.
Links:
Would you like to ask a question and have the chance for it to be answered on the podcast? If so, please use this form. Please note that asking a question and this podcast in general is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual mental health treatment.
#7: Understanding Validation in Relationships and Why We All Need It Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast, where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
So welcome back Ed. Today we’re going to be talking about validation, and why it’s so important in interpersonal relationships.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, I think that this is one of my favorite aspects of DBT, is the focus on validation and how helpful it is in relationships.
Marielle Berg
So I think a good way to get started in talking about validation and why it’s so important in all our relationships, is to first talk about what invalidation is. To give listeners a sense of what invalidation looks like, and what it feels like to be on the receiving end of being invalidated.
Marielle Berg
So there are different types of invalidation. But I would say broadly, invalidation, is when you are told, either directly or indirectly, that your thoughts or emotions or opinions, either don’t matter, don’t make sense, are stupid somehow, or that you’re overreacting.
Marielle Berg
Another way of saying this is that invalidation is when someone responds to your private internal experience with some version of “No, that’s not how it is, you’re wrong. You’re making a big deal out of nothing. Let me explain while you’re wrong,” Or invalidation can look like being completely ignored altogether. So we might say that invalidation by omission, as well. And of course, if you’ve ever been on the receiving end of this, and we probably all have in one way or another, it’s painful.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, I think that invalidation is just negating our own experience of our emotions. So we all have our emotional experiences. And if someone says like, that’s not what you’re feeling, or that’s not okay to feel, or you shouldn’t feel that way, when that is what we’re feeling, we can easily become defensive and want to, you know, like, defend our emotions, instead of having someone start with, that’s interesting, what’s going on? When we can explore it a little bit more deeply.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely. So the invalidation can put us on the defense, we want to try to prove why we’re right or why our internal experience is important. And I think another piece of this on perhaps another level, or a deeper level, is that invalidation is a way of kind of questioning your own mind. Like you don’t know what you’re thinking, you don’t know your own internal experience, which can feel really sort of lonely and isolating and confusing, because we all have the need to be understood by others, especially by those closest to us.
Marielle Berg
As I said a moment ago, and as you pointed to it, some of the after effects of being invalidated can be that defensiveness coupled with anger, where you might want to insist like, this is actually how it is, or potentially attacking the other person, saying, like, you just don’t care about me, clearly, if you did, you would see it my way, when the other person may very well actually care for you. And we’ll get more into this later in today’s episode, because there is a way that you can validate someone’s experience without necessarily having to agree with them. So now that we’ve sort of talked a little bit about what invalidation is, and why it’s painful to be on the receiving end, let’s talk about what validation is, and why it matters so much in relationships.
Ed Fowler
So yeah, so basically, validation is validating that someone else is having their experience, being able to express verbally and nonverbally, that I am with you, I’m listening, and I’m not judging, I’m trying to see things from your perspective. And that is, you know, the best way to really connect and get more information out of someone else’s personal experiences. We’re jumping quickly to oh, no, that’s not what you meant, or that’s not what you’re feeling or that doesn’t make sense to feel that way. Starting with a little bit of like I’m listening I’m trying to understand helps people open up a little bit more.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely. It increases intimacy and trust and safety. And validation is a necessary part of all relationships from the most significant relationships, like a spouse or someone you’re in intimate relationship with, to friendships of all sorts, to work relationships. And I think it’s really key or sort of, it acts as a really important kind of connector and social lubricant. Because validation lets the other person know that you’re listening.
Marielle Berg
And that’s like the first level of validation, which we’ll also talk a little bit more about in a moment. Because not being listened to hurts. So if you’ve ever been trying to talk with someone, and you can tell that they’re distracted and not listening, how does it feel?
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
Pretty crappy. It also lets the other person know that you’re not judging them, as we were saying a moment ago, because feeling judged obviously hurts, too, and will totally put you on the defensive. And it communicates that you can see the world from the other person’s perspective, like you can put yourself in their shoes for a moment. And it can really help the other person feel supported.
Ed Fowler
And validation reduces the pressure we can feel to prove who’s right. Because if we’re trying to figure out is my emotion right, is their emotion right, someone validating us or us validating someone else removes that pressure of like, who’s right who’s wrong.Just, we’re all having our own experience.
Ed Fowler
And also validation reduces anger and defensiveness. Validation is a way of letting the other person know that we understand their perspective. And it really feels good to receive that understanding, helps us feel more connected and intimate, and have more trust in other people and have for them to have more trust in us.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, exactly.
Marielle Berg
Another way that can be helpful to think about validation is this idea of intent versus impact. Meaning that we might have an intent to not hurt someone’s feelings, but that’s very different than the impact that it has on someone else.
Marielle Berg
So I want to share a personal example. So a friend of mine, felt really dismissed by me when I kept saying no to their request to spend time together. And the reason why I was saying no so often is because I was going through several losses in my family, we had several elderly family members die in a short period of time. And this had a lot of ripple effects in my family, and on my energy level, and on my desire to be social, which isn’t that high on my best day, because I’m pretty introverted. And so I withdrew a bit more socially, and this friend kept reaching out. And I kept saying no, or I couldn’t. And eventually, they confronted me because they felt really hurt. They began to feel like our friendship didn’t matter, that I didn’t value her, I didn’t value our friendship, which we’ve had for many years. And this was not my intent at all. My intent was kind of to withdraw, to grieve, to sort of regroup, and sort of, you know, circle the wagons, we might say, as I was going through this process. And if I came back to her, that’s not what I meant, how could you be so self-centered, you know, I’m going through a grief process, it’s ridiculous for you to feel hurt, you should know better, given what I’m going through. How do you think that would have went?
Ed Fowler
I don’t know that you would still be friends.
Marielle Berg
Exactly. And I had some of that initially. Like she should know.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And I realized, thanks to the work we do in DBT, that that wasn’t going to go well. And that what I first needed to do was to not be focused on my intent, but on the impact and to validate how she was feeling. And she was missing me and she was feeling dismissed. And to really address that first, to communicate, like I get it. Of course, you don’t really know what’s going on, I haven’t been very communicative. And yet it feels bad to keep reaching out and to keep being told no.
Marielle Berg
And so that, when we can do that towards other people in our lives without being so focused on what our intent is, or getting our point across first, when there’s some kind of hurt feelings or interpersonal conflict, I feel like it’s like aloe on a sunburn. It’s very soothing. So this, you know, calmed her down. We talked about it for a while, and then I could talk some about my intent and what was going on. But first and foremost, what was needed was a lot of validation, and letting her know, like I get it. And of course, that would feel bad.
Ed Fowler
And I think that, you know, as I’m listening to your story, I’m reminded of times when people have offered some sort of critique of me or expressed feeling invalidated by me. And I think it’s really easy and natural in a way to be defensive when that wasn’t our intent. So my intent wasn’t to invalidate you or to hurt you, so therefore, I want to defend that’s not what I meant.
Ed Fowler
And one of the, like, simplest forms of invalidation is that’s not what I meant. And it’s like, well, I don’t care what you meant, this is how I feel. And so for me, I think that I find when I am able to start with identifying where the other person is coming from, and just acknowledging their feelings, that cuts off my instinct towards defensiveness. And so validation actually can help me engage the conversation, and like you said, essentially be able to explain my intent. But if I explain my intent first, that’s probably pretty invalidating.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And sometimes explaining your intent isn’t necessary or needed. But there is a place for it after the validation happens. And I think one of the reasons why this is emphasized or taught as a skill in DBT, is because many people who come into DBT have the experience of being chronically invalidated in their childhood and growing up. So being told, over and over, that’s not it, you’re too sensitive, which we talked about a couple of episodes ago. And so it might be really hard, then to know how to validate first of all yourself, and how to validate others.
Ed Fowler
Right. I think that, for many of us who have strong emotions, in childhood especially, we get a lot of you’re overreacting, that’s not really what you’re feeling. And so then we learn to distrust our own emotions. And I’ve had my own experiences of being invalidated. I can remember a few years ago, coming to a supervisor with a real frustration with some of the administrative stuff that we had to do in our work. And having my supervisor say, like, I don’t understand why you’re having such a strong reaction to this, it doesn’t really make sense. And I immediately became very defensive, and wanted to argue why it made sense to be frustrated by the administrative approach.
Ed Fowler
And of course, like I had, you know, like all of my evidence of like other people I had talked to and everybody else who’s complaining and whatever. And it was really a dead end conversation, because my supervisor was invalidating me. And I became defensive, and was invalidating her. And so we had to just end the conversation and come back to it. And when we came back, both of us started with validation.
Marielle Berg
Oh, yeah. What did that look like?
Ed Fowler
And so like, of her being able to say, like, I understand that this is really frustrating, I’m wondering if we can talk about it. And for me to be able to say, I understand that it’s hard to hear complaints about this administrative stuff. And when we ended the first conversation, it was very tense. But when we came back, it was like, so much more productive, we were able to address things we both felt heard by the other person, because we started with I understand. So if that wasn’t what I meant is like kind of a very base level invalidation, I understand is a base level validation.
Marielle Berg
Absolutely. I think that’s a great illustration of how it can go awry without validation or with invalidation, and how things can get more smoothly, or how things can go more smoothly when it’s a tricky subject and there’s power dynamics with a supervisor, and how much validation sort of eases that conversation along.
Marielle Berg
And if you don’t understand what the other person is saying, because sometimes you may not, you, a way of still validating, even if you don’t really get it is saying something like, I don’t understand, but I want to, can you tell me more about what’s going on? So at least you’re communicating to the other person that you’re trying to get it. So I don’t want to say that validation means that you have to understand, because sometimes we don’t. But showing that we care enough to ask, like, I don’t get it, but please tell me more, I want to try to get it.
Ed Fowler
Right. I want to understand.
Marielle Berg
Yeah. So really important. And so let’s talk a little bit about how validation is actually different than just agreeing. Because I know when we talk about validation, sometimes in our skills group, this can get a little bit confusing.
Marielle Berg
So when we’re talking about validation, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we’re agreeing with the other person’s saying, what they’re doing or what they’re feeling. So not only do you not have to necessarily agree, you also don’t necessarily have to like what they’re saying.
Marielle Berg
So for example, suppose your boyfriend comes home from work and they’re feeling really angry at their supervisor, to use another work example. And you’re thinking, I can’t validate my boyfriend’s anger at their supervisor, because I know the facts and the history and I don’t feel like they have a right to be angry. And so you may feel like if you validate the fact that they’re angry that you’re saying that their right to feel their anger.
Marielle Berg
And so you can imagine how it might go, if you start off the bat. If they come home and they say, look, I’m really angry, this thing happened at work and you come back with Well, I don’t think you have a right to feel angry because XYZ, right? Probably not gonna go well.
Ed Fowler
Probably not.
Marielle Berg
But if you can say I get it, I understand that you’re angry, what this does, it can really calm down the other person and this in relationships can really help things not escalate. In this case, it can help your boyfriend feel understood, and not hurt. And there can be a time and place later on to talk, in more, perhaps of a Wise Mind place about what happened and maybe some of your views.
Ed Fowler
Yeah, so I think that, you know, in these kinds of conversations, to start with validation, and that, you know, helps the other person feel heard, feel understood, can de-escalate, if they’re really having strong emotion. And then, and I like the idea of just, I get why you’re angry period, right? But there is a difference between I get why you’re angry, but your supervisor has a point and, I get why you’re angry, and I wonder where your supervisor is coming from.
Ed Fowler
But again, if someone’s really upset, I get why you’re angry, and I wonder where your supervisors coming from, may seem invalidating, so I get why you’re angry is probably the best approach.
Marielle Berg
Right, to start with. And what you’re talking about here is the but/and. So when we do, I get why you’re angry, but, it sort of negates that whole I get why you’re angry, and the emphasis is on the but. And if you can do I get why you’re angry, and, that allows for the dialectic piece, that two things can be true at the same time. You can both understand why your boyfriend is angry, and are there factors to consider?
Marielle Berg
And as you said that there’s you know, timing is everything in these kinds of discussions. So that’s something to think about. So another example of validating, but not necessarily agreeing with, is let’s say you are hosting a get together at your place and your neighbor knocks on your door and is pretty upset and irritated because they think that one of your friends has blocked their driveway. And you know for a fact that none of your friends have done that, because they all took the bus to get you. Let’s just say that.
Marielle Berg
So you can validate like, oh, yeah, wow, that’s really frustrating, someone is blocking your driveway. That’s validation. But you’re not validating something that isn’t true, that it was one of your friends cars. If you respond to your neighbor with, well none of my friends did that, and I don’t know what your problem is, right, that means we’re gonna have some problems. Yeah.
Ed Fowler
Right. And so you know, validation is very helpful and valuable, and for me, I think having a conscientiousness of trying to start with validation helps a lot. And it’s kind of tricky to be able to validate someone’s emotions without necessarily validating the context. For instance, if you know that your friends didn’t block their driveway, right? But I think that there’s levels to how we validate, and starting with, you know, lower levels is always a better place to start.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And let’s talk about, since you’re talking about levels, like some of the how to of validation. So how to actually validate someone when you’re talking with them. And like, the first most basic level is to pay attention. It communicates to the other person that they matter. And that in and of itself, sort of at a fundamental level, is validating. And maybe we should talk a little bit about like, the subtle and not so subtle ways that we don’t actually pay attention.
Ed Fowler
Right. I think that for instance, if you’re, somebody’s talking to you about something that’s important to them, and my phone buzzes, and I go to check it, that’s a form of invalidation. I’m not totally paying attention to that person. And unfortunately, I’ve done that. And I’ve had it done to me.
Marielle Berg
Yes.
Ed Fowler
And I very much don’t like it.
Marielle Berg
Yeah.
Ed Fowler
Like oh, are you busy? Do you need to take that call? Am I bothering you? And so just really like trying to be attentive when we’re talking to someone, especially if they’re expressing their emotions, to really be focused on them, listening to them, paying attention to what they have to say, not giving in to other distractions.
Marielle Berg
Yes. I think the point about smartphones is so important because it’s so pervasive. You’re talking with someone close to you, they’re looking at their phone. It’s that continual kind of distraction and it it feels really bad to be with someone and try to communicate something and they’re distracted that way. And I know I have also done it.
Marielle Berg
And when I have been the person who’s listening, and I get distracted by my phone I think I often think that I can give a good excuse. And it makes, oh, this is just really important or like, I’m sorry, is gonna make it okay. And it really doesn’t, it’s so much easier to see how it feels bad when it’s done to us versus when we are doing that to someone else. So if you find yourself doing that, watch the judgments. And we talked about being nonjudgmental, in a previous episode, and recommit to paying attention. One way to think about paying attention is bringing basic mindfulness skills on board. So just –
Ed Fowler
I think that using that mindfulness of like, you know, observing what’s going on, being in the moment with that other person, gives me a focus, so that if my phone buzzes, I know, I can notice it, but that’s not what’s important, so I’m drawing my attention back to the conversation.
Marielle Berg
Yes, in addition to phones, even if it’s, you’re not being distracted by your phone, there’s all sorts of other subtle ways we can invalidate by not paying attention. So that could be maybe not making eye contact, it could be thinking about something else while the person is talking, like just waiting for them to finish so you could say your piece, right? So you’re not really focused on them.
Ed Fowler
And we pick those things up, like when we’re talking, we can tell when someone’s not totally fully attentive. And so I think it’s worthwhile, when I am listening, to use those mindfulness skills to really be focused on the person that I’m listening to.
Marielle Berg
And something you can do if you’re in a moment of intense distraction, or you’re trying to juggle something important coming in on your phone, or your whatever might be on your mind, if you can, like if time allows, you might be able to think about saying to the other person, you know what, I’m super distracted right now, can we have this conversation in 10 minutes? I really want to hear what you have to say. So that’s something to think about to help get you paying attention and being mindful when you’re having a conversation.
Marielle Berg
And let’s move on to the next level, like a little more, a higher level of validation. So the first level is just paying attention. The next level, we could say is reflecting back what you heard, without judgment. So this might be called reflective listening, where you’re letting the other person know that you heard them accurately. And you’re not adding to what you heard. You’re just like, oh, yeah, so you’re saying you feel XYZ.
Ed Fowler
So for example, you can imagine that you’re on a hike with a friend, and you start to climb up a steep hill. And towards the top of the hill, there’s a lookout point where some other hikers have gathered, and there’s a guardrail. And people are leaning against it and looking down at the beautiful view. And your friend stands back and says, I’m scared to go to the guardrail, because it’s too close to the edge. You can validate your friend is scared, without having to agree that it is dangerous, meaning there is something to be scared of.
Ed Fowler
So first, you just put yourself in their shoes and say, you know, yeah, we’re really high up, and that can be scary, without having to agree that it is scary, then, you know, like, you can just go and you get close to the edge and go by the guardrail and take your pictures or whatever. But not saying oh, don’t be silly. Come on. It’s not that high. There’s a guardrail. What’s the big deal? But by just saying like, yeah, it is like this is really high up, that’s pretty scary, is a form of reflecting back what your friend has said, validating their experience without necessarily having to say, okay, well, then let’s go back down.
Marielle Berg
Right. Exactly. And I have been on the receiving end of it’s not a big deal, this is safe, this is a secure guardrail, and that doesn’t actually help. Like, it doesn’t help calm down my fear.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And so the, you know, if I could hear the validation, I think it could be very calming in the moment. Like, oh, yeah, we are really high up. And the third level of validation that I want us to talk about is something called reading minds. And this is an important piece of how we conceptualize validation in DBT. And it’s sort of, again, a more advanced level of validation that can be powerful, but I think can also be tricky. So when we’re trying to read minds, as we call it in DBT, we’re trying to figure out what’s going on with the other person without them having to tell us.
Ed Fowler
And we’re not literally trying to read their mind. But we’re basically trying to read their body language, read their mood. We’re trying to notice what they’re feeling, without them having to put it into words. So noticing that they’re, you know, kind of hunched over and they’re looking down and maybe they’re feeling sad. Or notice that their face is really scrunched up and our hands are clenched, maybe they’re really angry. And being able to notice that without them having to verbalize it.
Marielle Berg
Right. And I think one of the tricky things about this is that, when you’re doing this mind reading, you want to do it with a light touch, when you let the other person know that you’re picking up on something. So you might say something like, I have a feeling you might be upset, or I’m wondering if you’re upset with me. And this can make the other person feel deeply understood and seen, versus kind of insisting I know you’re angry at me,
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And kind of going down that road.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Marielle Berg
And the important thing is, also is to trust the person, because maybe you’re off. You might be picking up on something, you might be really certain, sort of energetically, you’re sensing this person that is upset with you, or they’re sad, or whatever they might be, but be open to hearing what their reality is.
Ed Fowler
Right. And be willing to be wrong. So that, you know, for me, I find it really helpful to just say, you seem really sad, or it seems like what I just said was frustrating for you. And using the word seems, because I’m guessing it as it seems I don’t know. So it seems like what I said is frustrating. And if they say no, take them at their word, and let it be.
Marielle Berg
Right. And that’s a hard part about mind reading. But if you can do it, again, with a light touch, it can feel so good to the other person. It feels great to be on the receiving end, to have someone who knows us well enough, who can just sort of pick up on things like, oh, you’re kind of frustrated, huh? And that’s a very wonderful kind of validation to receive.
Marielle Berg
And I think, you know, we’re all sort of doing this all the time, to one extent, or another. And especially with couples, there’s a way that couples are exquisitely attuned to each other, and they really notice those subtle shifts in energy and body language with their partner. And then they make all sorts of assumptions based on this. Which has a positive, because there’s fine attunement and so they can sense if maybe their partner needs something or is having a hard time. But also, as we’re talking about, can create these problems.
Marielle Berg
So if you assume if your partner gets a little bit quiet, and maybe no one else would notice, but you know them really well. And so you know, they’re a little bit quiet, and you assume they’re angry at you. You might, if you don’t check that out with them, like, are you upset with me, you might begin to shift how you’re behaving. So maybe you get a little short, or a little distance.
Marielle Berg
And then maybe they weren’t angry to begin with, maybe they were just feeling tired or distracted or who knows. And then, but you’ve gotten short with them, and you’re getting a little irritated, and they respond to that, and this is how cycles sort of build, where couples are, like, confused. Like, why are we arguing, what just happened?
Ed Fowler
Right. And so I think a key part of reading minds as validation is to notice what’s going on, and then check it out. That if we notice, and assume, we can very easily be off. So we notice, and then we reflect that back and try to check it out and see, is what I’m noticing what you’re experiencing?
Marielle Berg
Alright, so thank you again, and for joining me to talk about validation. So we talked about what invalidation is. And then what validation is, how to do it, why it’s so important, and the different levels of validating someone else. Which are, just to recap, to pay attention, kind of basic level validation, to reflect back without judgment, and to try to kind of read someone’s mind.
Ed Fowler
And there are more levels of validation that we can talk about later, but that’s a good start.
Marielle Berg
Great, thanks again.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s bayareadbtcc.com.