#35: Coping with Pandemic Fatigue
As we pass the year mark of pandemic life, many of us are exhausted and eager to get back to how things used to be. While there are positive developments with vaccination rates rising and case counts lowering in some parts of the world, the finish line is still far away. We need emotional stamina to stay the course and tolerate the limits on daily life that the pandemic imposes. In this episode, Marielle and Ed discuss lots of DBT skills that can help you do this.
DBT Skills Discussed
- Validation
- Mindfulness of Current Thoughts
- Mindfulness of Current Emotions
- Radical Acceptance
- Check the Facts
- Opposite Action
- Problem Solving
- Accumulating Positive Emotions
Show Highlights
- Validation helps you recognize that your experience matters
- Self-invalidation makes you feel worse
- Pausing and noticing what is going on for you
- Putting a name on what you’re feeling
- Noticing thoughts without judgement
- Where am I feeling this emotion in my body?
- Allowing distressing thoughts to pass by, like clouds in the sky
- Balancing being with emotions and distracting yourself from them
- Radical Acceptance of reality that we cannot change
- Radical Acceptance does not equal approval
- Fighting reality increases suffering
- Change is fact of life
- Checking the Facts can help us notice if we are making assumptions about ourselves, others, or about the future
- Being mindful of extremes in thinking
- Imagine coping well with what scares you
- Giving yourself credit for getting through unprecedented times
- Opposite Action helps you act in a way that is opposite to what your emotion is guiding you to do
- If your emotion is based in fact, using problem solving
- Making a plan to do things that you enjoy daily, however small
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#35: Coping with Pandemic Fatigue Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
Welcome Ed.
Ed Fowler
It is good to be back, Marielle, even though I see you all the time. But we have not podcasted in a long time.
Marielle Berg
No, in this format, we haven’t, we haven’t been in contact. So we are resuming recording episodes. Shout out to our fan in the UK who was very validating in, and encouraging in us to resume recording. So we’re excited to be here and talking about skills to use during what we have coined, and many other people have coined the term pandemic fatigue.
Marielle Berg
So we’re mid March, and we know we have listeners all over the country and all over the world, and were in the San Francisco Bay Area. And things have been very restricted for quite a while and it’s loosening up a bit, but it still is quite restrictive. So that is is wearing on all of us.
Ed Fowler
And I think that there’s you know, the this combination of, for us in the San Francisco Bay Area, like coming up on a year of like, really big restrictions on people gathering together and doing things in public, and also having a lot of people getting vaccinated.
Ed Fowler
And so that there’s the sense of like, oh, my gosh, we’ve been doing this for so long. And also, there is an end in sight, like there’s the possibility of some major change and being able to do much more together and public in the not too distant future. And so how do we hang in there when we’ve been going for a long time, we’re not at the end yet, and people are really feeling it?
Marielle Berg
Yeah, as you were talking, I was thinking of the word like stamina, and how much emotional stamina this has taken to get through. And we’re not, we’re not at that, you know, the final mile marker, if we were running a pandemic marathon. We’re not there yet. And there’s still a lot of uncertainty with new variants, etc. So in addition to the the hope that’s there, with people getting vaccinated and things changing, at least at this point for the better, there’s still uncertainty. And so what, what can we do to help support ourselves, while we need to keep going and need to still, for the most part, stay distant from others.
Ed Fowler
And so we talked about a handful of DBT skills that can be helpful, for, I like what you said, Marielle, building up our emotional stamina. To be able to get through and we’ve been dealing with something for a long time, that is stressful, and that we can’t control in a lot of ways. And so how do we maintain our sense of balance and our sense of mindfulness and being present, as we are dealing with something that’s long term?
Marielle Berg
So the the first skill that comes to mind, and we’ve been I feel like doing this in one way or another for ourselves and listeners in over the last couple minutes is Validating. Validating that this is this is real, this is hard. It can be very draining. And that validation, while not actually solving any problems, can be quite reassuring to ourselves. Like yes, this, if I’m having a hard time if you know, days feel like a slog to get through there are reasons, it makes sense.
Ed Fowler
And we’ve done a number of podcasts on how to deal with this pandemic. And things are so different a year later, when so much of the emotion was fear, because there was so much unknown. And people’s experience of the pandemic has just been so varied. So there are people who have dealt with really serious illness, people who have dealt with loss, of jobs, loss of loved ones. Some people who are in parts of the world where there isn’t as much of the necessity for a lot of restriction,s have dealt with things in a different way being kind of more focused in their own home country and not being able to travel.
Ed Fowler
And I was talking recently to a friend who’s in a country that has not had a lot of restrictions because they’ve, you know, maintained a lot of keeping the virus minimal, but they’re slow to get vaccines. So they may end up having to maintain where they’re at now, because there’s not going to be a lot of vaccines. So they’re not going to be able to travel or have people coming in for quite a while.
Ed Fowler
So everyone’s dealing with things in a different way. And recognizing whatever you’re dealing with, is valid to you. Like, you’re not the only one, whatever your experience is, is what it is. If you’re feeling tired, if you’re feeling angry, if you’re feeling hopeless, all of that is completely understandable. And that’s what Validation offers us, is the ability to recognize to ourselves and to others, your experience is meaningful. It is what you’re experiencing, and it is understandable. And that can take the edge off some of the intensity of emotions we may experience.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And I think there’s a way that we can unknowingly invalidate ourselves, which makes whatever we’re experiencing that much worse. Like, I shouldn’t be feeling this, or I don’t have it that bad, and other people have it worse. Or, you know, why haven’t I just adjusted to this already, like all these kind of big and small ways that we invalidate ourselves, and then we wind up feeling badly. Like what’s wrong with me that I’m feeling so bad, it’s not such a big deal.
Marielle Berg
So anything you can do to validate the truth of your experience, and know that you’re not alone. And that’s why pandemic fatigue is, is a thing.
Ed Fowler
Right. And again, I think that, depending on people’s circumstances, the pandemic fatigue can be really intense. So I know, people working in hospitals, like this has been a really long year. For parents of small children, especially single parents of small children, it’s a lot. And for people who are living on their own, like, there’s just so much isolation that has come.
Ed Fowler
So I think that for each individual being able to notice, and this kind of segues into our Mindfulness skills, of being able to just notice, what am I thinking and feeling about where I’m at in the pandemic, about what’s going on with the pandemic, and being able to notice that and validate whatever you find. Like, that’s reasonable, that’s understandable, it is what it is.
Marielle Berg
And so I think what you’re talking about, or what you’re leading to is, are the skill of Mindfulness, both of Thoughts and Current Emotions. And so this is a way of bringing present awareness to what’s happening in this moment. And the first way to do that, to be mindful of what we’re feeling, is to step back and just notice that you’re having emotions. And naming them if you can. Oh, this is irritation, oh, this is loneliness. This is fear, whatever it might be.
Ed Fowler
And really trying to, especially if we’re feeling off, like feeling something that’s just feels difficult to manage, checking in what am I thinking? Noticing our thoughts without judgment, and without trying to do anything about them. Just noticing them. What am I feeling? Just noticing.
Ed Fowler
And using some of the tools for Mindfulness of Thoughts and Emotions, like, you know, some people like visualizations of like, imagining thoughts as a cloud passing by or leaves on a stream? With a Mindfulness of Emotions, noticing, where am I feeling this emotion physically? So I’m feeling something, what am I feeling physically? Oh, it’s a tightness in my chest. It’s a tightness in my throat, oh, I’m feeling grief.
Ed Fowler
And being able to just notice, without any pressure to do something. Oh, my gosh, I have to make this go away. Oh, my gosh, I have to do something I shouldn’t be thinking this. But just noticing – this is what I’m thinking. This is what I’m feeling, and acknowledging it.
Marielle Berg
And I like that reminder to check in with the body, because this is where the felt sense of our emotion lives so often. And even if you can’t quite pinpoint what you’re feeling, checking in with your body and noticing, you know, stomach tension, or, you know, a heaviness in your chest, whatever it might be, can be a great way to connect with yourself and begin to slow down and notice what’s actually happening inside.
Marielle Berg
Which when things are uncomfortable, there can be such a pull to not notice, right? To like, listen to another podcast, you know, to watch another show to distract ourselves in one way or another, when there’s really some important information that we can glean when we can slow down and check in with ourselves.
Ed Fowler
And dialectically sometimes we, we do need to distract ourselves from painful or uncomfortable thoughts or emotions. And sometimes we need to feel them. Sometimes we need to notice what we’re thinking. So being able to just check in with yourself of like, what’s going on now, can I check in for a minute?
Ed Fowler
If it’s really painful, then okay, go into some Distress Tolerance. And if you can just sit with it a little bit and see what comes up. Because again, thoughts and emotions guide us. Guide us to what we might be needing. And physical sensations as well, guide us to what we might need. And so taking a moment to check in can be really valuable.
Marielle Berg
And I realized as we’re talking and maybe spending the last 10 minutes or so encouraging people to be with, to feel with, to tolerate, I’m so glad you brought up the dialectical piece that there are absolutely situations where the most skillful thing to do is to put it on the shelf. And that’s where we have all our kind of distraction skills, Wise Mind ACCEPTS, Improve the Moment, Self Soothing.
Marielle Berg
So knowing for yourself and toggling back and forth when needed, like, Okay, I’ve checked in enough, this feels like too much, my bandwidth feels low. And actually perhaps the most skillful thing right now is to sit on the couch and watch something on Netflix. There is, wisdom, there can be wisdom in that, because we do also need a break.
Marielle Berg
Our distraction skills, help us move our attention away from whatever’s uncomfortable towards something else, which gives us it gives our system a chance to kind of rest and reset. So this is something to kind of keep in mind, you have, in DBT it’s really quite lovely, there’s such an array of different skills that you can pull upon, depending on what’s needed in the moment. And if you’re not certain experiment. Does it feel better right now to be mindful of my emotion or mindful of my thoughts and check in with my body? Or right now, do I need to do something that feels really soothing? Or to distract myself with a puzzle or or a myriad of different ways we can distract ourselves?
Ed Fowler
And I think it is helpful to check in with ourselves to see, have I been emphasizing one side or the other, a lot? So have I been distracting or self soothing a lot? And I’m not really mindful of my thoughts and emotions? Or am I feeling just a lot of intensity, and it’s because I’ve been really in my thoughts and my feelings, and not actually giving myself a break, that might come from some focused, self soothing.
Ed Fowler
So, you know, especially since we’re talking about how do we deal with things that may be ongoing, and have been ongoing for a while, just checking in. Okay, have I been far on one side or the other, and maybe I can pull in the other direction just a little bit. But again, validating that we’re not going to do it perfect, we’re not going to do it 100%, we just do the best we can. We notice, we try something, we see how it goes, and keep going.
Marielle Berg
And I wonder if we should move on and talk about some other skills that might be helpful.
Ed Fowler
Definitely. And I think that a lot of what we’ve been talking about is pointing towards such a valuable skill and a challenging skill to practice, which is Radical Acceptance. Because again, there’s been so much about the past year, that’s been really hard for so many people. And there’s still quite a bit of uncertainty about what’s going to be happening in the next year. And so really trying to notice what’s happening within myself around me in the world, and accepting the realities that we cannot change. And I think that that can be really meaningful, even though it’s hard to just say, here’s the reality as it is right now. I’m not going to fight it, I’m going to accept it. And at least try to accept that this is the reality that I am dealing with.
Marielle Berg
Well, we’ve done at least one entire episode on Radical Acceptance. And I feel like last year when we did a series on coping with the pandemic, I imagine almost every time or certainly was on my, it was on my mind if I, if we weren’t directly talking about it was the skill Radical Acceptance. And how that’s a skill I turn to on a daily basis.
Marielle Berg
And reminders – when we talk about Radical Acceptance, we’re not saying that we approve of the situation or that we even like it. But it’s fully opening up to yes, this is what’s happening right now. Yes, it has been almost a year since I could hug my best friend, comfortably or safely. Yes, it’s been this long since work has been incredibly stressful, or since I’ve lost my job or whatever it might be. So it’s a turning away from kind of fighting reality, or thinking things should be a different way, or why me, and opening up to what is. Because when we are in a fight with reality, we increase our suffering unnecessarily.
Ed Fowler
And so a a sign that we may be fighting reality is if we are feeling a lot of agitation. If we’re feeling a lot of frustration, bitterness, like an intense amount of fear, any strong emotion, could be a guide that there may be a reality that we’re not accepting. And that if we’re feeling things strongly, it’s a good opportunity to check in. And, you know, kind of getting into a skill we’re going to talk about in a minute, which is Check the Facts.
Ed Fowler
Checking the facts, like what’s the reality right here? And is there an aspect of this reality that I’m rejecting? That I am repeating to myself, it shouldn’t be this way, I hate this. I can’t wait for this to be over, I wish this was different, why did I have to go through this? All of those are, are signs that we’re fighting reality. And that accepting this is the reality. This happened. This is happening. This is what I’m feeling in response. Takes away some of the energy, and can help us have more balance, more access to our Wise Mind to figure out is there something I might do? Because this is a difficult reality. When we’re fighting reality, it’s really hard to access that. It’s like no, it just shouldn’t be this way. And that’s taking energy that we could use in ways that might be more effective.
Marielle Berg
Yes, and when we can radically accept or get in that space within ourselves there, there can be grief, we can touch into the loss, that can be uncomfortable. But what usually happens, or most of the time, is that if we allow those feelings to sort of move through us, there can be some sense of peace on the other side.
Marielle Berg
And so that can help us feel feel a bit more calm, a bit more relaxed, and just a bit more at ease. And I’m so glad you brought up Check the Facts, because when we, there’s an interplay here, between Radical Acceptance and Check the Facts. Because when you’re working with Radical Acceptance, we want to be cautious about accepting things in the future. Because I mean, while there are limitations on all of our futures, kind of known limitations, there may be things that you are trying to radically accept about the future that may not actually be factual. You may not actually know.
Marielle Berg
And I’m thinking about a conversation I had with a friend recently who lives alone, and is very, very social and how she’s been quite depressed over the past year, and didn’t really realize that she had this running thought or belief that when the pandemic hit, that her life was kind of over. And that’s where she’s sort of been hanging out in her in her mind for quite a while. Like, it’s all over. And she had some realizations that pointed out to her, or that made her recognize that she was thinking that and how that was making things so much worse, in terms of how she was feeling, and that it’s not actually true.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Ed Fowler
And so yeah, again, I think that it can be, when we have strong emotions, like our minds are going to tend towards the extremes. And so if you’ve lost someone, like I’ll never get over this. If you’ve lost a job, I’ll never find a job. I like, again, living alone, I’ll always be alone. Any of those extremes, we want to notice and say, Oh, am I, you know, accepting a reality that isn’t real? Because we don’t know what will happen for sure in the future. Some things we do know for sure. And some things we don’t.
Ed Fowler
Again, our guide is how do we feel? Because if they’re if we’re trying to accept something that’s not a reality, we’re not going to feel relief from that. And the goal with Radical Acceptance is to actually feel some relief. Like I’m not fighting reality, I feel some relief. So check in with our emotions, being mindful of our emotions will give us information. Is there something that I’m trying to accept that actually isn’t a reality to be accepted?
Marielle Berg
Absolutely, and as you’re talking, I was thinking just about how much the pandemic has required us to become more adaptable and more comfortable with the unknown and with change. And change is a reality of life, we might say change is the only constant. And when we are, and I think about this is related to radical acceptance of radically accepting that change is absolutely a reality, is a fact of life. And how can you respond, rather than react to it or hold tight. Ro no, this can’t be happening to yes, this is happening and changes will keep coming, and some will be positive and some will be negative.
Ed Fowler
And so we want to maintain the flexibility to roll with whatever comes. And, you know, again, being mindful of where am I at right now will give us information about what we need, accepting reality might be something that we need and might help.
Ed Fowler
We also may need to like Check the Facts on what’s happening. You may need to use that skill very purposefully to say, what is going on right now? What are the facts of what’s happening within me? The facts of what’s happening in my immediate life, facts of what’s happening in the world, which, that’s much harder to determine the facts about. But to be able to, like really look at, okay, instead of feeling strong things, right, feeling a lot, let me balance that with some Reasonable Mind. Balance the Emotion Mind with Reasonable Mind to get to Wise Mind?
Ed Fowler
What are the facts of the situation? And when we Check the Facts, very often checking the facts can help us recognize, oh, I’m feeling a lot of fear, because I’m making a lot of assumptions about what’s going to happen, and I don’t know for sure. Checking the facts can help us get in touch with, for instance, like this has been a year of a lot of uncertainty, and I’ve actually coped pretty well. I’ve rolled, I’ve learned to roll with things more, I’ve faced a lot of challenges. And I’ve gotten through that. Those are some facts we’re going to want to recognize.
Ed Fowler
We also want to recognize with checking the facts, am I making assumptions about myself, about others, about circumstances, that are creating emotions that are not working for me? So checking the facts is our opportunity to say, okay, what are the facts of the situation? What are my interpretations, my judgments, my assumptions that may be inflaming the emotion, not based in facts.
Marielle Berg
And when you’re checking the facts, if you’re not certain whether something is a fact or not, you can think about who, what, when and where. And really just trying to lay out the facts as they are, and being very mindful, or really looking out for black and white, or either/or thinking or extremes and thinking. Because when we go there, in our minds, this is the place where a lot of very painful emotion can come. It’ll never be different, I’ll always be suffering this way, or something terrible will happen down the line. Those kind of extremes and thinking are very often what can create distressing emotions.
Marielle Berg
So looking out for those extremes, thinking about what threat you might be assuming is going to happen. That’s something terrible might happen and you won’t be able to cope. When you do Check the Facts in the more formal way as it’s laid out in DBT, it really asks you to think about what what you’re scared of happening, and imagining that happening and coping well with it, because this can be very reassuring.
Ed Fowler
So often, when we’re having a lot of fear, it’s because we’re assuming something painful is going to happen, and we will not be able to cope. When this past year is a good example of like when painful things happen, and we find a way to cope somehow. Sometimes it’s a real struggle. Sometimes it’s not, we don’t cope effectively. But I think that being able to like just really reasonably look at, okay, if the thing I’m afraid of, which is causing strong emotions, did happen, how will I cope? To be able to recognize, oh, I will do this, I will reach out to this person, I will increase my skill practice around this aspect of it. I’m checking the facts. And really working all the way through to even if the worst happens, how will I cope, oftentimes is enough to bring down strong emotion, give us an important information and guide us to what’s needed next.
Marielle Berg
I’m linking this back to what you said a moment ago. But my hunch is many of us. mean you and I and I bet many of our listeners as well actually have been coping with this pandemic. I mean, we’re all still here, unless we’re not of course, right. A lot of us have experienced tremendous loss, tremendous change. And yet here we are getting through.
Marielle Berg
And so this kind of reminding ourselves of that can also be really useful, and is a reminder that really hard thing, like unimaginable things, although I bet to the epidemiologists, this was not and many other people, this was not unimaginable. But hey, to me, it was, right? I’d see a movie like, outbreak and be like that will never happen. Right? But, and then it did. So denial sometimes is adaptive.
Ed Fowler
Can be, yes, exactly it can be valuable at times.
Marielle Berg
But now I’ve lost my point. I think my point was that we can cope with really hard things, and that kind of reviewing where you’ve been emotionally over the last year, and giving yourself credit for getting through. Even if at times it has not been the most skillful.
Ed Fowler
I think when we Check the Facts, sometimes that’s enough to decrease unwanted emotions. And sometimes we need to follow up checking the facts. And so in our Emotion Regulation module, the skills that flow from checking the facts are Opposite Action and Problem Solving. So depending on the situation, and what we get from our checking the facts, if the emotion we’re feeling, that we’re struggling with is based in a lot of assumptions, or judgments or interpretations, it’s not so much facts, more opinions of our own, or if the whatever the facts of the situation are, it’s not effective to act on that emotion in the moment, then we have Opposite Action as a way to change the emotion.
Ed Fowler
So instead of acting in line with what our current emotion is telling us, we act opposite, as a way to feel different. That we feel more, the emotion we’re practicing, than the emotion that we have. So in pandemic terms, like if we’re feeling a like a sense of like, oh, my God, I can’t get through this. It’s too much. I’m sick of this. When can we go back to normal? And we Check the Facts. And it’s like, Okay, I’ve made it a long way, I’ve been coping quite a bit. I don’t know exactly when things will be back to quote unquote, normal, I’m recognizing that my fatigue and my frustration are based in facts, of the reality of the situation is like, yeah, things have been in upheaval. And it’s not going to be effective for me to act on that.
Ed Fowler
So we might need to practice some Opposite Action and say, you know what, I can handle this, I can handle this for the rest of the year. I’m just going to act like I am secure, I’m calm, I can handle this. And very often, we will start to feel different if we do that.
Ed Fowler
Quick reminder about Opposite Action: halfway makes us feel worse. If you’re going to do Opposite Action, you have to go all the way. So it’s not enough to say I can make it through with my teeth gritted. We have to say, I can make it through, I feel really open about this, and give that a try. And that may cause a shift for us.
Marielle Berg
Yes, how we act, how we hold our bodies, how we behave, has such a profound impact on how we think and feel. And so it goes both ways. There’s a loop, of course, how we think and feel impacts how we act. With our tone of voice, how we hold our bodies. If we’re feeling sad, we might slump, we might talk more quietly, or more slowly, we might get, we might not talk really at all. So it works in that way.
Ed Fowler
And so then if we Check the Facts, and really the facts are going to need to be addressed, our emotion is very much based in facts and we need to do something about it, that’s where we have this skill of Problem Solving. To identify, okay, so, if I, what am I feeling, what’s prompting that feeling? If it’s based in facts, then I need to figure out okay, what’s my goal for what I would want to change? And what are some specific actions I can take to move in that direction?
Marielle Berg
But it also works the other way. And that’s where the beauty of Opposite Action comes in. That if we kind of fake it, and act opposite to what we’re feeling. Say we’re feeling sad. And we decide that the emotion doesn’t fit the facts, or its intention, intensity or duration doesn’t fit the facts, or it’s just not effective to act on it in the moment, we act opposite to that. So maybe we talk a bit more quickly, or with more sort of liveliness, we hold ourselves upright, we make eye contact, we get more active. And that can affect how you feel. The sadness can decrease, some of the sad or distressing thoughts can change. So there’s these continual feedback loops between thoughts, emotions, and behavior.
Ed Fowler
So for instance, I’m, you know, talking to a bunch of people who are just really feeling tired of the routines of life at home without being able to go out as much. And so some opposite action can help but in the long term, we’re going to need to figure out some other things. So thinking about okay, if I’m feeling sick of being stuck at home, what what are my options? Look at what is my goal. Well my goal is to feel a sense of being able to do things. Okay, what are some concrete things I could try? Oh, I could go for longer walks, I could make an appointment to meet someone, which I haven’t done in months, for social distanced gathering. I can plan a trip for when everything is over and I can travel, I’m going to start planning a trip soon as it seems reasonable, I’m going to put that plan into action. So sometimes if our emotion is based in facts, we want to solve that problem by doing some concrete planning, very specific actions that we can take that will move us towards solving that problem.
Marielle Berg
And all of these things, so Check the Facts, the Opposite Action and Problem Solving, lets us or reminds us that we have options. When we’re feeling distressing emotions, we have a variety of different ways we can respond to that, to those emotions, depending on the situation. So you don’t have to feel stuck feeling an emotion that is incredibly distressing.
Ed Fowler
And again, when we’re dealing with something that’s ongoing, being able to like recognize I have options can be so helpful. And so, to wrap up this episode, it’s probably helpful to end on a very upbeat skill, which is Accumulating Positive Emotions, especially in the short term. Doing things on a daily basis, to give us positive feelings, pleasant activities that we can do. And so if you’re struggling with like pandemic fatigue, making a plan for specific things that give you pleasure, can help you it’s a form of opposite action in a way, and can help you feel like you’re doing something that’s increasing your emotional resilience, and helping you feel a sense of I’m doing something that’s making my life feel better.
Marielle Berg
That’s a great note to end on. And that’s a skill that I in particular struggle with, and I believe have talked about, and have been really trying to think about doing that on a regular basis during this pandemic, when options feel limited. What can I do daily that’s small, and nice for myself that feels soothing, that I can be mindful when I’m doing?
Marielle Berg
All of this, again, won’t radically change how you’re feeling, won’t change your life circumstances. But it’s like taking a daily vitamin. It’s shoring up your emotional resilience, to help you continue to get through. And so on that note, we’ll end for today and our intention is to try to be back more regularly sharing DBT wisdom to help people during this time.
Ed Fowler
So good luck with all of the skill practice as you’re moving along, and we look forward to talking again soon.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy, you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s BayAreaDBTCC.com.