#40: Overcoming Procrastination

Today’s episode is a response to a listener question about procrastinating making progress towards life goals. Marielle and Ed explore the emotions that underlie urges to put off doing what needs to get done. For some people, procrastination is a habitual response, no matter what the task. For other people, procrastination is a response to specific unpleasant tasks. Either way, procrastination often leads to feelings of shame and low self-worth.  

Procrastination also can create secondary problems, meaning that not taking care of a task or problem often leads to new problems. Marielle and Ed discuss skills to help you change this common and challenging cycle.

Show Highlights

  • Identifying the emotions and thoughts that drive procrastination
  • Fear is a common driver of procrastination 
  • Fear of failure 
  • Fear of letting people down or angering them
  • Are you basing your sense of self on what you achieve?
  • Being mindful of your thoughts
  • Self-soothing by engaging your 5 senses to tolerate distress
  • “Bookending” – doing something nice for yourself before and after that hard task
  • Rewards are much more effective than punishment
  • Breaking down one big task into small tasks
  • Using self-encouragement 
  • Remembering why this goal is important
  • Using the Build Mastery skill 
  • Acknowledge all the hard things you have already done in your life
  • Radical Acceptance around the desire to procrastinate
  • Self-love and self-compassion as an antidote to self-criticism

DBT Skills Discussed

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#40: Overcoming Procrastination Transcript

Marielle Berg 

Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast, where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.

Marielle Berg 

Hi, Ed, how are you doing today?

Ed Fowler 

I’m doing good. It’s good to be back in the virtual booth.

Marielle Berg 

Likewise. Today we are going to be tackling the topic of procrastination. This came to us from a listener question. So thank you to the person who sent it. We don’t share names of our listeners when they email us on the podcast for confidentiality’s sake, but we do appreciate the questions and comments that come in.

Marielle Berg 

And so this question was particularly around how how do I move towards my life goals, you know, now that my kind of, I’m paraphrasing here, my my life feels more under control. Things are less chaotic. I’m managing my emotions better. How do I avoid procrastinating when I want to get started on doing things to create the kind of life I want?

Ed Fowler 

So Marielle when you sent me this question and said, Oh, this could be a topic for the podcast, I think you’ll have things to say about this. Because we’ve talked about this many times about how procrastination is one of my things. It’s one of my specialties. In terms of practicing procrastination, and more and more in terms of coping with procrastination.

Marielle Berg 

You’re an expert in procrastination.

Ed Fowler 

I’m definitely an expert in procrastinating.

Marielle Berg 

I’m a former expert.

Ed Fowler 

I’ve improved. So there’s hope for us all. There’s hope for us all. But I definitely, we’ve talked about this before, like I started procrastinating when I was in elementary school. And like really, that became one of my biggest habits. If I had something important to do, that often just automatically felt like increased pressure, which made me want to avoid it.

Ed Fowler 

And I just got into such habits where anything that felt important, I would automatically start with procrastination. Start with putting it off, I’ll definitely do that tomorrow. I’m for sure gonna get started on that soon. And it also then increased a lot of anxiety and a lot of having this thing hanging over my head when I had something to do.

Marielle Berg 

And as someone who’s also procrastinated in the past, I remember in sixth grade, having a science fair, I don’t know if they still do science fairs, but it we were supposed to work on some kind of sciency project for months, and then present it at this fair that the public went to. And I believe I did mine the night before. And of course it was terrible. And I was speaking just about how with that, like the the shame that came with it.

Ed Fowler 

Yeah.

Marielle Berg 

The feeling like the self, you know, reprimanding or you know, I don’t have I didn’t have that language when I was young, but just sort of the beating ourselves up that we can do. And it’s so demoralizing. So you tend to then not, you know, if it’s something that’s work related or school related, we tend to not do our best work.

Marielle Berg 

I think there’s something to be said sometimes for deadlines approaching to be a motivator. What we’re talking about here is the kind of procrastination that really can erode our sense of self and our sense of self respect. So we thought this would be a really important topic to tackle, and to begin to think about why we procrastinate, some of like, the general reasons why, for each individual might be a little bit different, and some skills to help you work with it.

Ed Fowler 

And when you mentioned your science fair experience, I thought of five different science fairs that I did at the last minute.

Marielle Berg 

I thought it was just me. I still feel bad about that.

Ed Fowler 

Oh, definitely.

Marielle Berg 

Thank you.

Ed Fowler 

I never, just this was such a part of my life that I was just like, this is what I do. This is how I take care of business is oh. And my poor mother. I was like Mom, I have a science fair project. It’s due tomorrow, I need these things. Every time it’s like what are you talking about? What you did, when did you get this assignment? But I just you know did things at the last minute and still tend to in a lot of ways but. We will talk about some of what goes into the desire to procrastinate.

Marielle Berg 

So one of the first things I think of and I don’t know, if you think in a similar way, but especially as we’re talking about the science fair projects, I think about the general avoidance of doing something unpleasant, because we anticipate that it might be boring or tedious or complicated, or something we’re just not interested in. I know, I certainly wasn’t interested in science.

Ed Fowler 

Me, either. So there.

Marielle Berg 

There we go. But I could have avoided if it was something I was interested in, too, but probably less so. But if we want to, you know, make this broader, there’s so many life tasks that we all have to deal with, as adults. You know, dealing with your insurance company, or any kind of bureaucracy, cleaning out a closet or garage, right? Like there’s we have such a endless list of things that are not that pleasant.

Ed Fowler 

Yeah. So yeah, and I think that just to validate that not wanting to do things that we don’t want to do is a human characteristic. There are definitely people, I know people, who are very structured and focused. And even if they don’t want to do something, they just say, okay has to be done and I just do it. Most people I know will avoid the things that they don’t, they’re not interested in, or they don’t want to do. And so what we’re dealing with, when we talk about this topic of procrastination, oftentimes it is really at at base, I don’t want to do this, I would prefer not to, and I have to, and so finding ways to just get going with it.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, and what you’re talking about here is kind of normalizing. So decreasing some of the shame or the negative things we might say to ourselves in response to procrastination, I think it’s a very common way of dealing with things that feel hard, or scary or unfamiliar in one way or another.

Ed Fowler 

Right. And I think that there is a deeper experience of procrastination, which is more what I’ve dealt with, which is starting from avoiding, doing things we don’t really want to do. And then there becomes this like, really fixed habit of avoiding tasks, and avoiding things, especially things that feel scary, or have pressure.

Ed Fowler 

 And that, for me, feels even more. There’s the fear, that’s a big part of that. And the worry about, oh, what if I do a bad job? What if I can’t do it? What if I can’t get it done? What if I fail? What will other people think when I do this thing? That then creates like a real stuckness around trying to do things. Which has an even deeper pain around it.

Marielle Berg 

What you’re talking about is when procrastination really gets sort of cemented into our way of being and maybe our identity, where the avoidance, or the putting things off happens pretty habitually.

Ed Fowler 

Right.

Marielle Berg 

It’s really demoralizing,

Ed Fowler 

Right. And the way I think about procrastination, and DBT Emotion Regulation, and understanding emotions has helped me a lot with this, is like, so often, the motivator for procrastinating is fear. Like, you know, sometimes it’s boredom. Sometimes it’s like, I just don’t feel like doing that. But very often, when there’s a strong procrastination, we’re afraid of something.

Ed Fowler 

And that fear can become really intense. And the natural instinct with fear is to avoid the thing that we’re fearing. And the problem with that is, the more we avoid, the bigger the fear becomes, the more the fear builds. And so we can get in stuck in this place where we’re avoiding, which creates more fear, which creates more avoidance.

Marielle Berg 

And very often the Opposite Action for fear is to approach the thing that we are scared of over and over, which, of course can feel so uncomfortable in the moment, I don’t want to imply that’s an easy thing to do.

Ed Fowler 

It is the solution that is also going to be excruciating when we have to approach something we’re afraid of.

Marielle Berg 

I also think about unpacking or examining the fear a bit more. You know, is it fear of failure? Is it fear of just not getting it right, or doing something wrong? You know, what, what is the fear?

Marielle Berg 

And in our Check the Facts skill, part of that when you do a more formal check the facts, part of that practice includes looking at what the threat is. What is the thing that you are scared that might happen? And kind of naming that and figuring out how you would cope. If the thing that you’re most scared of happens, how will you deal with it?

Ed Fowler 

And so I think that when for those of us who do struggle with procrastination, the starting point is mindfulness. Just noticing, I’m engaged in this behavior, and then being able to name it and check the facts, kind of see what’s going on here. Is it fear of failure? Is it fear of disappointing? What is it?

Ed Fowler 

And like Marielle said, named the threat.What is the worst case scenario I’m afraid of? Because that just gives us the whole point of the Check the Facts skill, is it gives us data outside of just the emotions that we’re experiencing, and then we have more to work with. Because what we do to manage procrastination is going to be very different if the fear is fear of failure, versus I just really don’t like doing this, right? And so we want to know what we’re dealing with, know what is creating such intensity of emotion around this, and that can help to guide us.

Marielle Berg 

And when we’re in that procrastinating mode, there’s, there’s fear, and there’s such intense anxiety, that turning a spotlight on the fear can feel really counterintuitive. Because fear wants us to avoid. And so this is where you might find yourself distracting in a way that’s harmful and not helpful. So we have distraction skills in our Distress Tolerance module, which are very helpful when your distress is really high. But if you are using distraction, sort of as a way of life, to avoid doing things you need to do, because there’s fear, usually additional problems will ensue, you’ll miss deadlines, you’ll create some, you know, chaos in your life. So really beginning to examine what what the fear is about for you.

Marielle Berg 

Another thing I think of is when fear of failure comes up is that for some of us, we might be basing our sense of self on how we achieve or don’t achieve. And this can be part of a fear of failure, like if I don’t do well in this, and I’m clearly not a smart person, or I’m clearly not cut out for this role, whatever it might be. So really looking at the story you’re telling yourself around your fear and what it might mean to, to not do something as well as you would hope, or to let people down or disappoint other people.

Ed Fowler 

And again, to check the facts and sort out what are the facts of the situation, and what are those assumptions I’m adding to it? So, and to get specific about what are assumptions for me, the things I procrastinate the most are around fear of failure, right? Like, oh, I will fail, and everyone will know that I am a failure kind of thing. But also fear of other people’s reactions.

Ed Fowler 

Oh, if I, and this comes into when we talk about Interpersonal Effectiveness, I talked about this a lot. That fear of like, Oh, if I ask for this, that they’re going to be mad at me, they’re going to be frustrated that I’m asking for something. If I say no, they’re going to be really devastated and hurt and not be able to handle it.

Ed Fowler 

And so being able to really check the facts and see, what are the assumptions I have about what I’m avoiding doing? And being able to name those so that we can understand like, okay, these are assumptions, it is not a fact that they will be mad at me if I ask for something. But it is an assumption that has a lot of power. And I want to be able to work with that.

Marielle Berg 

And if someone does happen to get mad at you because you’ve requested something, or is disappointed, can you and can the relationship survive? So unpacking some of those interpersonal effectiveness myths. That if there’s conflict, or I disappoint someone, that’s going to be the end of the relationship.

Marielle Berg 

And there is no way that or any kind of authentic long term relationship can avoid conflict, this is just a part of being human. And so having some faith, and of course, brushing up on your Interpersonal Effectiveness skills, to know that, if that does happen, that you you have ways to work through that.

Ed Fowler 

Again, with with checking the facts, which is a lot of what we’re talking about, like what we’re trying to do is get more clear information and not just the assumptions that are automatic and come up with feelings, so that we can like think it through.

Ed Fowler 

For instance, if this person gets mad at me for asking for something, that’s a whole different thing that we need to deal within in this relationship. Or I have this assumption that they’re going to be mad at me, but that’s never actually happened. And so maybe this is assumption is not based on facts at all. And so being able to like really examine it. Look at what is the fear that is driving this, what’s the nature of it, what are the facts, what are the assumptions or judgments, and then choosing what we might do next.

Marielle Berg 

And we’re giving different examples here. And I think for each person that will be a little bit different. I know for me, that is not a fear of someone getting angry or disappointing someone. Not to say I don’t ever feel that, but it’s not a huge motivator for my procrastination. For me, I think it’s more around when things seem like onerous or tedious, or I don’t know how to do them that I will really build it up in my mind to be a lot worse than it is.

Marielle Berg 

I mean, sometimes it is pretty bad, like going to the DMV, but I will, you know, think about it for months, and how awful it’s going to be and really build it up in my mind. And then when I actually do it, even if it is unpleasant, all the thinking and the worrying, and the avoiding it was so much more unpleasant than the few hours I had to spend at the DMV.

Marielle Berg 

So Mindfulness of Current Thoughts. What story are you telling yourself about the thing you’re avoiding? As you said a moment ago, Ed the story you might be telling yourself about how other people might react if you have fear of disappointing people, or, or people getting angry and your close relationships? Or is it fear of how difficult this thing will be? Or is it something else entirely? So what what’s the story you’re telling yourself about the thing you’re avoiding doing?

Ed Fowler 

And like you said, Marielle, mindfulness of thoughts helps us to recognize I am having these thoughts, as opposed to these thoughts are facts. It is a fact that this is going to be tedious and horrible, as opposed to I’m having a thought that this is going to be tedious and horrible, it may or may not be. Like I don’t know for sure.

Marielle Berg 

It’s so different when we can step back and engage that observing part of our brain. And we do this with all our Mindfulness skills, instead of just being in it and feeling it and taking it as true. Where we’re noticing ourselves have that thought and it it gives us some breathing room between ourselves and the thoughts. So Mindfulness of Current Thought, can be really helpful with procrastination, as well as what we already named, Check the Facts, Opposite Action.

Marielle Berg 

I also think about some Distress Tolerance skills, not the distract ones, because usually people are procrastinating or overusing distract. But some of the self soothing Distress Tolerance skills, when we engage our five senses, and if possible, thinking about setting the stage in a way that feels comforting and soothing, as you’re about to embark on tasks that you want to avoid.

Marielle Berg 

And so suppose you have to send an email to someone, and you’re worried that, to use your example earlier, Ed, that they might be upset or angry at you if you tell them something or ask something. So maybe lighting a candle before you do that, or having your favorite hot drink or ice cold drink, if you’re somewhere warm, by your side. Maybe listening to some music first. Whatever you can do, to use your senses to kind of calm yourself down and comfort yourself. That can all help with the anxiety.

Ed Fowler 

Something that that we also mentioned when we were talking about procrastination as a topic, is creating incentives for doing the thing we don’t want to do. And that’s where the self soothing can create something that makes the task less onerous in the immediate, and has a bit of a reward with it.

Ed Fowler 

And so for instance, like having that soothing drink before you do it, and then listen to music after or something. So that you’re, as they say, bookending, the activity that you’re avoiding, so that there is instead of like, oh, this is going to be so awful as the approach, there’s a sense of ah, this is going to be important. I’m going to do soothing things around this. This is something that can have pleasant aspects in addition to the more stressful aspects to it.

Marielle Berg 

And I’m so glad you brought up the idea of reward. Very often we think that behavior change will come with yelling at ourselves or punishing ourselves. And I think for many of us, this happens very automatically and we’re not quite aware of how frequently it happens until we really look at it. So it might be an ongoing sort of narrative in your head in the background about how terrible you are, or lazy, or disorganized, wherever you go around this. And that’s why you’re not doing this thing. And another day has passed, and you haven’t done this thing. And there can be also, I think, a unconscious assumption that that that might motivate us. If I just sort of, you know, apply the whip to myself, I’m gonna get going. And that doesn’t usually work. Maybe it’ll work like in the short term, it might get you to start doing something. But overall, it is not a sustainable plan.

Marielle Berg 

And actually, reward works much better, to motivate us to do difficult things and make change. And when we’re talking about rewards, you don’t have to think about huge things like oh, once I do my taxes, I’m gonna take a vacation to Hawaii. I mean, wonderful if you can do that. But, you know, once I do this hard thing, what how am I going to reward myself? Like you talked about, you know, listening to music. Maybe you’re going to call a friend after maybe you’re going to take a drive somewhere beautiful, whatever it might be, you’re going to watch a show.

Marielle Berg 

And I think the thing that can get in the way of people doing this is feeling like they don’t deserve it. Or I haven’t worked hard enough. Which leads me to another piece, or another thing to think about when avoiding procrastination is bite sizing difficult tasks.

Marielle Berg 

And we talk about this in some of our skills, such as Problem Solving, or Accumulating Positive Emotions in the Long Term. When we have big goals we want to work towards or complicated problems, sometimes procrastination is a result of being overwhelmed and not knowing where to start.

Ed Fowler 

And

Ed Fowler 

so taking whatever it is that you need to do, and making it into a bunch of smaller tasks, as opposed to one big overwhelming task. And this has worked really well for me, because oh, I have to do this huge thing, I’m definitely going to avoid that. But when I take time to sit down and say, Okay, these are the five pieces of doing that big thing. And I’m going to do them one at a time, and maybe even have some sort of reward after each step. So that there’s more of a sense of like, oh, this is something enjoyable to do, I’m much more likely to actually start going and doing it.

Marielle Berg 

And the reward can also be in this is from one of our Distress Tolerance skills around encouragement, or self encouragement, can be like saying something to yourself, good job, or like, it’s great that you got going on this. And I know sometimes people can sort of recoil from that, or they don’t want to talk to themselves that way. But if you’re feeling that, as you listen to this, think about all the negative ways you’re very comfortable talking to yourself. And so why not replace that with with positivity, with encouragement, with acknowledgement of of making progress? Even if it’s small.

Ed Fowler 

And the the listener question that got us on this whole topic was around, how do I deal with procrastination towards my long term life goals, my big picture goals? And so again, this gets into the skill that we have around Accumulating Positive Emotions in the Long Term, the idea that it’s important to feel like we’re working and making progress towards our life goals, or bigger picture goals.

Ed Fowler 

And again, I think that one of the things that can help is acknowledging why this goal is important. What’s the benefit for me in doing this thing that I’m wanting to avoid? So I want to get this advanced degree so I can do this work that I’m really interested in. And I have to start with researching programs to get into and start the process of applying, and I’m totally avoiding, because I’m overwhelmed.

Ed Fowler 

Like thinking about and using some of what we’ve done with other skills around imagining that positive outcome. It’s taking a little time to imagine yourself in that, that role that you’re trying to go for. Imagine yourself enjoying the benefits of doing, the things that you’re avoiding doing. And that, putting our work in context or the activities and context of this isn’t just sending this email that’s uncomfortable. This is about I’m going to be able to do this thing I really want to do in my life.

Ed Fowler 

That can give just a little bit more momentum on the side of taking action. It’s not I mean, validating all of these things we’re talking about is not going to magically solve procrastination and just like oh, great, now I love to do it. I can’t wait for the science fair. It’s more around just like how do I do things and try different angles that will get me unstuck and keep me moving.

Marielle Berg 

I still have nightmares about that science fair. So there are some things we just might never like doing. But

Ed Fowler 

I hope for you Marielle, you never have to do another science fair.

Marielle Berg 

I hope the same for you too. And we have chosen work where we don’t have to do anything like that.

Ed Fowler 

Exactly.

Marielle Berg 

But when you were giving your example about applying for or pursuing an advanced degree, I was thinking about this listener who sent in this question. And of course, I don’t know the details of their, their history. But also for anyone who’s in a similar boat, where you want to get started on big life goals, to create what we call in DBT, a life worth living, like really kudos to you. Because that means that you have done enough work and there’s enough stability in your life, to begin to think about those things.

Marielle Berg 

When we are just surviving day by day and just kind of getting through each day, it’s very hard to think in bigger picture terms. And to feel like we can steer our lives in the direction we want. So even the fact that you’re thinking about doing that kind of thing, is is a big deal.

Ed Fowler 

And I think that for those of us who have really struggled with procrastination, when we’re really in it, we can’t see big picture. Like we can’t see the long term that this is an aspect of feeling overwhelmed in life. And so the skills that we’re talking about is really about noticing, oh, I’m procrastinating, I’m avoiding, I’m struggling, looking at okay, what is it that I’m dealing with, breaking it down, understanding it, and starting to develop some strategies around how to deal with it.

Ed Fowler 

One of the things that can be helpful to me, is using a Building Mastery approach. And again, this is getting into some of our skills around Emotion Regulation, that build up our emotional resilience. And Building Mastery gives us a sense of I am working on something important, and making slow and steady progress, so that I can feel the positive benefits of accomplishing goals of accomplishing things.

Ed Fowler 

And for me working on procrastination very much as a Building Mastery activity, where I’ve struggled with it so much in my life, that it’s really helpful to remember, just focusing on trying to deal with procrastination is a form of building mastery. I’m doing something important here, I’m making progress, I’m growing, I’m feeling relief from some of the habits that have felt stuck. And so having that mindset can also be a way that we have a little bit more energy and momentum.

Marielle Berg 

And so, the Building Mastery skill is around challenging yourself regularly to do small things that are a challenge, they’re not, but they’re not totally out of your reach, because then you’ll give up like we all do when we’re doing something that is, is is too hard in the moment.

Marielle Berg 

So we also want to stay away from doing things that are too easy. So finding finding challenge. And so what you’re talking about Ed is using Building Mastery, with the challenge being avoiding procrastinating and getting started on doing things. And over time, how has that positively impacted how you think about yourself?

Ed Fowler 

I mean, again, I think that when I have found ways to to decrease procrastination, like I’ve because it’s been such a big part of my life since I was very young. Like I do feel a lot of positive energy and exhilaration around making progress. It usually doesn’t mean I’m never gonna procrastinate, again. Like the procrastination comes back. It’s like, well worn a habit.

Ed Fowler 

And today, I no longer think of myself as like, Oh, I just struggle so much with procrastination, as opposed to, I can get into a procrastination mode, and I’ve had the experience of getting out of it. So I will apply that again. And so procrastination doesn’t feel so shameful. It doesn’t feel so overwhelming. And I do feel a sense of oh, I’ve gotten out of procrastination before. I’m here procrastinating now, I can get out of this again.

Marielle Berg 

It’s such a great reminder for people who are listening, because I’m sure we, I mean it sounds like Ed, you’ve done a tremendous amount of work of, around moving away from procrastinating really as a as a habit. But my strong hunch is that many if not almost all listeners have the experience of having to do something hard or something that brought up fear or uncertainty and maybe you procrastinated but then you wound up doing it. And so giving yourself acknowledgement for for those times and for the ways that you have overcome procrastination and not let the fear or the uncomfortable feelings get in your way.

Ed Fowler 

And one of the things that I will will also add that has helped me a lot has been Radical Acceptance around my tendency towards procrastination. Because for many, many years, I had really strong habits of procrastination, as well as the habit of saying, Oh, you’re doing it again, you always procrastinate. Just stop, just quit it, just don’t do it. Just do it this time, just do it. What’s holding you back. And I wasn’t accepting that procrastination is something I really struggle with.

Ed Fowler 

Procrastination has been something that I’ve found really hard to change. And so just radically accepting: I struggle with this. This is a big deal for me. This is not easily changed for me, relieves some of that pressure, relieve some of the shame.

Ed Fowler 

And I hope this episode is validating people who struggle with procrastination, you’re not the only one. This is a common thing. And it’s definitely painful, I feel you, Marielle feels it, right? And so being able to just accept, yes, this is something I am struggling with. This has been a big struggle in my life. This is getting in my way right now.

Ed Fowler 

Because again, the value of Radical Acceptance is instead of fighting reality, and saying, I’m just not going to procrastinate anymore, when that’s not how I work, I’m able to say, this is where I’m at, I’m not going to fight it, I’m going to accept it, which for me, this is what I love about Radical Acceptance. That’s where I’m open to change. That’s where I can consider options. I can look at skills that might help I build willingness to work on this. Not from a place of like, oh, just stop doing it. But from a place of yeah, this is a big struggle. What now?

Marielle Berg 

You’re really bringing in love and self compassion, self love and self compassion.

Ed Fowler 

Yeah. Which again, my my experience of procrastination was very much the opposite. When I’m procrastinating, I’m very down on myself.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah.

Ed Fowler 

Just stop it. Oh, my God, here you are, you’re doing it again? How many times? Remember the science fairs? How many times are you going to do this again? And for me, like having to like really try to practice some self compassion and radical acceptance and say, yeah, I procrastinate because of fear. I’m afraid. I need to put effort into focusing on what to do. And then I have all these possible skills that have helped me make some behavioral changes. I feel more mastery over procrastination, I feel less shame. And I feel more potential when I’m in that place of like, okay, what are my options,

Marielle Berg 

So this might be a good place to stop, I feel like we’ve given listeners a fair amount of skills, which of course we’ll list in the show notes. And as Ed said, I hope just listening to this has decreased some of the self judgment and shame. You’re not alone. We’re there with you and so many of your fellow humans are as well.

Ed Fowler 

Exactly.

Marielle Berg 

Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy, you can find us online at BayArea DBTCC.com. That’s bayareadbtcc.com.