#45: Soothing Trauma Symptoms with Elle Michel, LMFT
Today, Marielle interviews Elle Michel, LMFT, a therapist in Los Angeles who specializes in treating complex trauma. Elle uses a combination of modalities to treat trauma, including DBT, Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), and Brainspotting.
This episode focuses on describing what happens in the nervous system after a traumatic event, and how to use DBT skills to cope with an activated brain and body.
Show Highlights
- DBT skills can help create safety and grounding when there is a trauma history
- Trauma takes time to heal
- The importance of reducing shame about how people have coped and normalizing the desire to feel better
- The temperature part of the TIPP skills is useful for flashbacks, high anxiety, and feeling unsafe
- Self-Soothing with the 5 senses
- Using Distraction intentionally to focus your attention somewhere else when activated or triggered
- Radical Acceptance of both the trauma and the aftermath
- PLEASE skills, as many trauma survivors learn to neglect their own well-being
- Opposite Action for resistance to taking care of self
- Retraining your brain to pay more attention to positive and neutral events
- Gratitude lists
- Trauma can make people’s lives small as a way to feel safe
- Using DEAR MAN to directly assert needs
- The importance of self-validation, using phrases such as:
- “There is nothing wrong with me for feeling this way.”
- “This is a normal reaction to an abnormal event.”
- “It makes sense that I feel this way.”
DBT Skills Discussed
- The T in TIPP
- Self-Soothing
- Distraction
- Radical Acceptance
- PLEASE
- Self-Validation
Resources
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#45: Soothing Trauma Symptoms with Elle Michel, LMFT Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
Today, I’m interviewing Elle Michel, a therapist based in Los Angeles who uses DBT, as well as other modalities to treat trauma. In this episode, we talk about different kinds of trauma, what causes trauma, and how trauma activates the nervous system.
Marielle Berg
After we finished recording this episode, I thought about how we could expand the lens of trauma to include intergenerational trauma, racial trauma, and the trauma associated with being a member of a marginalized group, and of course, the current collective trauma of living through a global pandemic. These things can all be profoundly destabilizing in a number of ways. Elle shares her favorite skills to help soothe and activate a nervous system that can be useful, regardless of the origin of the trauma. And I’m hoping you find this episode helpful.
Marielle Berg
Welcome, Elle, I’m looking forward to our conversation today.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Hi, Marielle. It’s so good to be here.
Marielle Berg
I know that you have a lot of experience working with folks who are trauma survivors. And you bring in the DBT framework to help people as they kind of try to build a life post trauma. So let’s, let’s dive right into it. Tell me how you think about trauma or how you define it.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yeah, so historically, trauma has been defined a little bit more narrowly than I define it. So you know, it was defined as like any kind of life threatening event. But when we actually study trauma, we find that all kinds of different events can be traumatic. It’s really just any event that overwhelms the nervous system. And it kind of gets stuck in the brain.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So the brain and the body have a way of processing emotions. And when the brain gets overwhelmed, and the nervous system gets overwhelmed, memories of events can kind of get stuck in a way that creates a lot of distressing symptoms. So I would define trauma really, as anything that overwhelms the nervous system.
Marielle Berg
And that’s such a great way to define trauma. Because often people say, Oh, I don’t have trauma, because they’re thinking of really big, catastrophic events.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Marielle Berg
Which, of course, is trauma, but there’s also a whole bunch of other things that we can experience in our life that can be traumatic and overwhelming to our nervous system.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right. Totally.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yeah. So when we talk about trauma, there’s all kinds of different types, right. So what we call Big T trauma, which I think is what most people think of when they think of trauma, would be like a really bad car accident, or, you know, a really scary assault or something like that.
Elle Michel, LMFT
But there’s also little T trauma, which would be any event that usually is repeated over multiple months or years. So something like bullying, where if somebody says something mean to you once ever in your lifetime, it’s probably not going to be traumatic. But if you’re treated that way, over multiple times a day over multiple months, over multiple years, that accumulates and creates a traumatic experience.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So there’s big T and little t. And then we also have developmental trauma, which is anything that happens that’s traumatic during somebody’s early developmental years, like you know, zero to 12, 15, you know, that impacts their identity, their development of their sense of self. And then relational trauma, which is any kind of trauma between two people. So it could be a neglectful or abusive parent or again, bullying would fall into that category of relational trauma.
Marielle Berg
And again, I think some people might be surprised to hear things like bullying, or neglectful parenting as falling under the heading of trauma, but certainly, you know, over time, as you were describing a moment ago, these have a cumulative effect to contributing to people feeling really not safe in the world and alone.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right? Exactly. Yeah.
Marielle Berg
Let’s talk about the some of the common symptoms that we see in trauma survivors, from the more maybe obvious, like kind of flashbacks, to some of the more subtle things.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right. So yeah, what people typically would think of would be flashbacks of the traumatic event, nightmares are also really common with trauma. But we see a lot of other symptoms as well, such as emotional distress and physical reactivity, really, in response to anything that reminds the person of the trauma. And then the other one that goes hand in hand with that is, people will start to try to avoid anything that reminds them of the trauma. So that can be pretty impactful in terms of making somebody’s life a lot more difficult when they’re constantly trying to avoid things.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Another one is just having a lot of negative feelings. So having a lot of distress, having difficulty regulating one’s emotions, having a negative view of oneself or of the world. Those are really common with trauma. Difficulty trusting others, particularly when there’s been any kind of relational trauma. There can also be irritability, there can be hypervigilance, which is kind of a fancy way of just saying, like, somebody who is constantly on guard, and constantly on alert for looking for something scary or negative to happen.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So that’s when your nervous system isn’t in a calm, regulated state, but you’re kind of constantly in this vigilant state of kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop. Difficulty with sleep is another one, and also engaging in any kind of risky or destructive behavior. So it’s interesting because there is some overlap between symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder and symptoms related to trauma. You know, there’s some discussion of you know, trauma is very common in people who’ve been diagnosed with Borderline Personality Disorder. So it makes sense, there would be some symptom overlap.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And I think you know, the earlier the trauma happens, the more folks who experienced these symptoms, just feel like this is the way it is. So you might not even notice that you’re on edge all the time, or that you’re continually mistrusting when you are in relationships, that’s just sort of how things are. And so I think it, it can take some work to begin to identify those things as the outgrowth of, of trauma.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Absolutely. That’s so true. You know, the earlier it happens, the more deeply ingrained a lot of these symptoms become. And it’s just becomes what people experiences as life and as normal.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, and then the process of therapy, these are things that we begin to identify and unpack. And of course, we have the DBT skills, you know, and other ways of working that can really help address some of the more upsetting kind of ramifications of trauma.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Marielle Berg
And so I know you use DBT, and some other modalities, you want to talk a little bit about, about how you begin working with folks, when they come to see you?
Elle Michel, LMFT
For treating trauma, there’s kind of two avenues. We can treat the root cause of the trauma and where the trauma is kind of stored in the brain and the nervous system. And for doing that, I really like to use EMDR, and also Brainspotting. Those are really great modalities for getting to the root.
Elle Michel, LMFT
But then we have to treat the symptoms, and for treating the symptoms, I really see DBT as kind of the gold standard for doing that. In terms of you know, when somebody new comes to see me, if there’s any issues at all around safety or emotion regulation, we always always start with DBT. Because if we jump right into EMDR or Brainspotting, those modalities can be somewhat activating, and they can really bring up more of the distress related to the trauma in the process of healing it.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So we really want to establish safety and groundedness and strong coping skills before we enter into that type of work. So typically, with new clients, I work with DBT skills for a little while to establish that kind of groundedness and that kind of container for being able to cope with trauma related distress, prior to getting into those other modalities.
Marielle Berg
The DBT skills are so helpful in providing folks, concrete things to do when they’re feeling overwhelmed.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Exactly.
Elle Michel, LMFT
And I think that that’s what a lot of other types of therapies miss. Because trauma can take time to heal. And during that time, it’s really important for people to know what to do when they’re having a flashback, or what to do when they’re having nightmares, or irritability, hypervigilance, any of those symptoms. That’s what I love so much about DBT, is DBT takes a lot of the mystery out of things and just tells people like, hey, these are some great things for you to try when you’re feeling this level of distress.
Marielle Berg
I sometimes think about it, as you know, a toolbox, and that we want for people to have a really extensive toolbox, so they can pull on different things to help in different moments. And for people who are trauma survivors, and especially, you know, the earlier that it happens, the more this is probably needed. It’s incredibly empowering, to feel like, oh, when I’m overwhelmed when I’m scared, when I can’t sort of settle my my brain and my body there. There are things I can do.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right, right.
Marielle Berg
That aren’t destructive.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Marielle Berg
And often I see some of the more risky or destructive behaviors that you mentioned, you know, a little while ago, and that are common for survivors of trauma as a way to to cope, what feels overwhelming in the nervous system.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Totally, right. I mean, I think we’re all trying to cope as best we can. And if we weren’t taught really healthy, wonderful ways of coping, we’re going to develop maybe unhealthy ways.
Marielle Berg
And to not judge that. Because you’ve probably seen this with the folks you work with people often come in with a lot of shame over how they’ve coped, right? And then they may feel like well, that’s the problem, or I’m just a bad person, or a weak person or wherever they might go, or I’m just flawed or defective.
Marielle Berg
But there’s, there’s some, there’s some wisdom, when people are turning towards risky or destructive behaviors, they’re trying to solve a problem with, with the tools they have, which are are often limited until we learn about DBT.
Elle Michel, LMFT
And I like to say, I mean people, people get creative, you know? What do people have access to, to regulate their emotions? Even when it’s really unhealthy things, it’s psyche trying to feel better. And we really want to honor that, that urge to, to regulate one’s emotions and to just feel better. But then, you know, we want to teach people healthier, non destructive ways to do that.
Marielle Berg
Yes, because there’s often a side effect or hangover effects and, and it can create more of a chaotic life or, you know, the risky or destructive behaviors, while rooted in some wisdom, or a lot of wisdom to help regulate and soothe people who are really suffering, there’s, there’s fallout from it.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Marielle Berg
And so let’s, let’s talk just a little bit about DBT, in general. Most of our listeners are familiar with it, that’s what this entire podcast is focused on. But do you want to just do maybe a quick review of the history of the of the treatment?
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yeah, so, so DBT was originally created by Marsha Linehan in terms of her work with people with a lot of mood dysregulation, and she was finding that CBT wasn’t as effective in treating them. So she developed DBT as an alternative treatment. And so DBT is really considered the gold standard for anyone with Borderline Personality Disorder, but we’ve found over the years that it’s also incredibly helpful for you know, treating mood disorders and anxiety and trauma and all kinds of different things, substance abuse as well.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So what kind of sets DBT apart from other therapies is, there are a few different components. So DBT incorporates individual therapy as well as group therapy. And the group therapy is really focused on helping clients learn coping skills. And then DBT also incorporates phone coaching, which means the client can call or sometimes text the therapist in between sessions, to really get support when something stressful comes up.
Elle Michel, LMFT
And the therapist will, you know, work with the client on, okay, what kind of skills can you use in this moment to cope with whatever distress is coming up. And then the coping skills that DBT teaches are four categories. So there’s Mindfulness skills, Interpersonal Effectiveness skills, which I always say is just kind of a fancy way of saying social skills, Emotion Regulation skills, which are all about just feeling better, and Distress Tolerance skills, which are really about coping with high levels of distress without, like we were just talking about, without doing something dangerous. And instead of getting through that distress safely.
Marielle Berg
Regular listeners to this podcast will have already heard us talk about a lot of these skills. And there’s more of them that we haven’t gotten to. And there’s ways to kind of expand on them. So there’s a lot to talk about with the skills, I feel they’re, they’re simple on their face. But once you really dive into them, there is so much to learn. And there’s so many opportunities to be creative in skill use.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right? So yeah, so some of my favorite skills for coping with trauma and trauma symptoms, are if we start with the Distress Tolerance skills, I would highly recommend the use of temperature in the TIPP skill. So the TIPP skill is an acronym that stands for Temperature, Intense exercise, Paced breathing, and Progressive muscle relaxation. And all of all four of these can be super helpful, but a lot of my clients have reported the, the temperature part can be for them, sometimes the most impactful.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So this is really great for dealing with flashbacks, and high levels of distress, where people are maybe experiencing high levels of anxiety or feeling kind of like that fight or flight response. Maybe when they’re triggered by something that reminds them of the traumatic event. And their body kind of goes into this, like we’re in danger, like flashing lights kind of zone. So with the temperature, the person can grab ice packs and place the ice pack like on the face or on the neck.
Elle Michel, LMFT
The best way to do this is to get a bowl with ice water, and actually dip your face into it while holding your breath for 30 seconds or so. And that’s what’s called doing an ice dive. And we call it that because it’s the best way to kind of simulate diving into a pool of cold water. Now, if you have a pool of cold water, you can absolutely dive into your pool. And that would also be a great way to work with temperature. But you know, a lot of people don’t have access to a pool.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So the TIPP skill, the temperature piece, really serves to kind of shut down the Sympathetic Nervous System, which the sympathetic nervous system is the part of our nervous system that tells us there’s danger and that we need to be on high alert. And then it helps to activate the parasympathetic, which is the part of our nervous system that helps us calm down and really ground and regulate after something scary has happened.
Marielle Berg
What’s your typical response when you tell people about the ice dive? Because sometimes people look at me like, you know, I’ve just said the most outrageous thing in the world.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yes, a lot of people are kind of like what? Like, you want me to do what? How is this therapy, like, stick my face in a bowl of ice? You know. But I find that the higher the distress, the more willing people are, because they’re like, I’ll do anything to not feel this way, you know? So I really encourage people to, to at least just try it. And it’s pretty effective for a lot of people.
Marielle Berg
It’s amazing how effective it can be. And you know, in past episodes when we talk about the Distress Tolerance skills, and and maybe this one in particular, because it can be so effective, in settling people’s nervous systems, is that it doesn’t take away you know, whatever problem or whatever thing that maybe triggered the memory or the unsafe feelings, like you still have to go back to maybe a difficult relationship, or a challenging day, but it can bring down distress enough for you to begin to think more clearly about okay, what how do I want to proceed? What can I do next that’s effective?
Elle Michel, LMFT
Exactly, right? So we’re not getting into solving the problem. We’re just trying to help somebody cope. You know, a lot of times when people have flashbacks or when people get triggered by trauma reminders, that’s when people can have urges to self harm, or to engage in destructive sexual behavior or destructive substance abuse behavior. So we’re really trying to help people avoid those some of those more harmful behaviors.
Marielle Berg
Yes.
Marielle Berg
And tell me tell me about some other skills that you feel are particularly helpful for coping with trauma symptoms.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So, more from Distress Tolerance, we have Self Soothing with the five senses. That can be really great for helping people kind of get back in their bodies. So one thing that happens with trauma triggers and reminders is that the person’s brain and body start to feel like they’re reexperiencing the trauma. So with Self Soothing with the five senses, we help somebody really kind of get back into the present moment.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So that can look like smelling a perfume or smelling a scented oil, just kind of putting a really soft blanket on you. And feeling with your hands like the softness of the blanket. It can look like moving your body, kind of stomping your feet on the ground, and just noticing what your body feels like. So Self Soothe is a great one with the five senses.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Another one I really like is Distracting. That can look like, you know watching a TV show or listening to a podcast, listening to music. It could even be like doing Sudoku or doing you know, any kind of crossword puzzle, or, you know, something cognitive. It’s really to get your brain focused on something else, while you’re coping with the distressing memory or the distressing event, and distraction can be really powerful.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Another one, that, you know, this is a big one is really just Radical Acceptance, you know, so there can be so much difficulty with trauma, particularly in the case of like a death of a loved one, with accepting the reality that it’s happened. And so Radical Acceptance is really important for allowing people to kind of move into the grieving state that needs to happen in order to fully heal from the trauma. So it’s hard to grieve something that we don’t fully accept.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, Radical Acceptance is one of those skills that I come back to over and over and over again,
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right. And this one is, is I would say, a little bit more of a kind of a long term. Like, you know, if you’re looking for relief, just in the moment, you might not get a ton of relief from practicing Radical Acceptance once. It’s, I think it’s more one that has to be practiced repetitively over, you know, weeks or months. But eventually, it will kind of sink in, and it will help you to kind of move on, ultimately.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, it’s not that, you know, one and done kind of skill, it’s a process. And for very painful things, it might be a lifelong process, that you’ll find yourself falling out of acceptance. And you’ll need to practice Radical Acceptance kind of over and over.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Exactly, yeah. There’s some skills I really like from the Emotion Regulation category of skills. So there’s the PLEASE skill, which talks about treating physical illness, balanced eating, avoiding mood altering substances, balanced sleep and getting exercise. So I really like this skill for treating trauma, particularly when there’s been the kind of accumulative effect of of trauma that’s happened over many months or years, people can often get the message that it’s not worth caring for themselves, maybe because they weren’t cared for adequately by a parent or caregiver. Or, you know, they were abused or you know, treated badly over a period of time.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So the PLEASE skill is super important for breaking the habit of, of neglecting oneself. So I work with a lot of my clients on really just, you know, treating, treating any illness that might come up, when they’re sick, taking medication or going to the doctor, getting enough you know, nutrition with, you know, eating enough, sleeping enough, you know, taking care of their sleep hygiene, getting gentle exercise. And of course, you know, we want to be careful because some people can develop compulsive exercise. So we don’t want to always recommend exercise when a person might be exercising too much. But you know, if that’s not an issue, then we want to, you know, encourage people to do gentle exercise. So that’s a really good one.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Another one that’s great is Opposite Action. And this is really good for helping people cope with any kind of self destructive urges that they might have, oftentimes, urges in relation to trauma triggers, you know, they might not be so egregiously self destructive, they might be a little bit more avoidance related, like, Oh, I just want to stay in bed all day, I’m overwhelmed, you know? Or I’m going to avoid self care tasks that I need to do. So that’s where Opposite Action can really come in handy, in terms of, you know, helping people really lean into, okay, this is actually what I need to do for my health and my wellness. And I’m going to do the opposite of my emotions’ action urge, because that’s what’s going to be best for me.
Marielle Berg
And that can be such a challenging one. But again, I mean, similar to Radical Acceptance, there’s a lot of payoff.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yes, absolutely.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Another one that’s really great is from the skill of Accumulating Positives in the Short Term. And the piece about being Mindful of Positive Events. So with this, I like to let people know about the negativity bias, which is basically just what we know from neuroscience research, that human beings have a tendency to pay more attention to negative stimulus stimuli, then positive stimuli. And that has to do with helping us stay alive and stay out of danger. Particularly as we evolved in our history as human beings, we needed to pay more attention to avoiding danger than to enjoying things that were pleasurable.
Elle Michel, LMFT
But what we know with people who’ve been through trauma is that the amygdala, which is the part of the brain that is responsible for detecting danger, the amygdala tends to become overactive. So the person not only has the negativity bias that all humans have, but then they have an overactive amygdala, which is telling the person constantly to be on the lookout for bad things happening. So it’s almost like a more intense negativity bias.
Elle Michel, LMFT
And we really have to retrain our brains to pay more attention, or equal attention to positive stimuli and also neutral stimuli. So that can look like doing pleasant events, and being mindful of them, you know? Like just enjoying a hot shower, and you know, smelling the scented body wash or something like something so simple can be a pleasant event, or I like to encourage my clients to make gratitude lists, you know, list at the end of the day, five or 10, things that went well today, or five or 10, things that you’re grateful for that, you know, didn’t cause you any distress today. And that can be really helpful in kind of retraining, just what the brain is paying attention to.
Marielle Berg
And related to that there can be an aversion to or a fear or maybe even a habitual, shutting down of feelings of happiness or joy or aliveness, very often in trauma survivors. It can feel so foreign and scary. So if I if I let myself feel good, what’s going to happen next, if I let my guard down? And so you’re really talking about encouraging people to to really embrace the positive feelings and the the pleasant emotions that come with doing small everyday things that are available to all of us in different ways, you know, the smell of coffee, or the sun setting, whatever it might be.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Exactly.
Elle Michel, LMFT
And it can be so scary at first and you know, we want to start small and we want to encourage people to take it little by little,
Marielle Berg
Which makes me think about something we had said, I think at the beginning, just around how trauma can really make people’s lives small,
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Marielle Berg
Where they’re operating in the zone that feels safe, even though it’s so limiting,
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right. So helping people start to experiment with pleasant experiences, can start to help people kind of grow their lives a little bit bigger.
Marielle Berg
I mean, these are all great suggestions. And for skills you’ve talked about that we have done entire episodes on, I will link to that in the show notes.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yeah, and then the last one that I’ll just mention briefly is from Interpersonal Effectiveness is the A in DEAR MAN. So the DEAR MAN stands for Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, and then to do that Mindfully. So the first A in DEAR MAN, the assert piece, can be so challenging for people who’ve had trauma, particularly developmental trauma or relational trauma. Maybe, you know, people have had the experience where they tried to assert themselves and a negative event happened anyway.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So people over time can learn, oh, you know, asserting myself isn’t effective, or it’s not useful. And their their assert can really get erased. So the assert is a really important piece of, you know, healing relationships and healing the ability to interact with other people around being able to speak up and say, hey, this is what I want, or this is what I don’t want, you know, I’m going to assertively say no to something that I don’t want. Or I’m going to assertively ask for something that I do want and just feeling that we have the right to say no, and ask for certain things.
Marielle Berg
Which, as you said, can be new for a lot of people and, and challenging. I often think of the assert, as you know, the ask, what are you asking for? Or what are you saying no to? And being really clear with yourself and with others,
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right.
Marielle Berg
So thank you for, Is there any more you want to talk about before I end things?
Elle Michel, LMFT
I forgot Self Validation. So Self Validation is also a really important one. So much of trauma, can be around invalidation. And unfortunately, in our society, trauma survivors are often met with a lot of invalidation. Like, oh, it wasn’t that bad, just get over it. Particularly when there can be, you know, perpetrators who are in a position of power and people don’t feel comfortable speaking up. And you know, the people in power are very much well regarded in society, that can be incredibly invalidating.
Elle Michel, LMFT
So that invalidation just creates emotional distress. So what we want to really help trauma survivors to do is to really get comfortable validating themselves. And that can sound you know, like, it’s normal that I feel this way, my feelings are valid, anyone in my position would feel this way, I have the right to feel the way I’m feeling. And, you know, this is a normal reaction to an abnormal event. There’s nothing wrong with me for feeling this way. And then I maybe I should have started with Self Validation, because Self Validation is so important for helping people then move on to whatever other coping skill can be effective.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, I like the idea of kind of turning it around a little bit and Self Validation, perhaps coming first.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right, right.
Marielle Berg
Where people really change the story that they’re telling themselves, which is often the story of invalidation. I shouldn’t be feeling this. I’m overreacting. What’s wrong with me?
Elle Michel, LMFT
Right, exactly.
Marielle Berg
So there’s a lot of great skills that you’ve suggested here. Thank you so much for coming on today. I think this will be really helpful for our listeners. And Elle, as we close, can you tell folks where they can find you?
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yeah, absolutely. So you can find me on my website, which is just my name. So www.ellemichelpsychotherapy.com. And that’s e l l e m i c h e l psychotherapy.com. And then my email is the same as just [email protected].
Marielle Berg
Great, thank you again.
Elle Michel, LMFT
Yeah, this was so great. Thanks, Marielle. I had so much fun.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy, you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s BayAreaDBTcc.com