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#53: Walking the Middle Path

When we find ourselves getting caught in extremes, the DBT skill called Walking the Middle Path helps us re-calibrate. 

Use this skill when you notice you are caught in binary thinking to find a way to move towards center. This episode explores common opposites:

  • Reasonable Mind vs. Emotion Mind
  • Doing Mind vs. Being Mind
  • Intense Desire of the Moment vs. Radical Acceptance of the Moment
  • Self-denial vs. Self-indulgence

Show Highlights

  • It’s hard to think creatively when we are in stuck in extremes
  • Thinking of a middle path reduces pressure to take action right away
  • Balancing your needs and someone else’s needs is an example of Walking the Middle Path
  • Balancing strong desire for change with radical acceptance
  • Emotion mind creates an urgency to “fix this now”
  • Noticing tendencies towards continual productivity and allowing for rest
  • Moving away from the opposite poles of austerity or hedonism to find a place of balance
  • Allowing for enjoyment of sensory pleasures without regret
  • Trying to be easeful in what we are doing, rather than intense
  • What way am I doing too much?
  • What way am I doing too little?
  • Avoiding “good” and “bad” language
  • Walking the Middle Path is highly individual
    • What the Middle Path looks like for you may be different than what it looks like for others

​​DBT Skills Discussed

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#53: Walking the Middle Path Transcript 

Marielle Berg 

Hello and welcome to the Skillful Podcast where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT & Couples Counseling Center.

Marielle Berg 

Hi, Ed.

Ed Fowler 

Hi Marielle.

Marielle Berg 

Are you

Marielle Berg 

ready to talk about Walking the Middle Path?

Ed Fowler 

I am very ready. I’m excited to talk about this skill that in our group, we don’t end up covering often because we’re trying to fit so much in we don’t often get to it. So I’m excited to talk about it, since it’s one that I like a lot, and sometimes kind of misses the intensity of some of the other skills.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, it’s a really useful one that I think does not getting enough love. So I’m happy we’re gonna dive into it.

Ed Fowler 

Let’s give it some love.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, let’s do it. Do you want to describe what this skill is about?

Ed Fowler 

Sure.

Ed Fowler 

So Walking the Middle Path is part of the Mindfulness skills in DBT, and is an, I would say, kind of a synthesis of Wise Mind and dialectics. So really, the heart of the skill is trying to notice two opposites or two extremes. And rather than moving towards choosing one or the other, very deliberately trying to find something in the middle.

Ed Fowler 

And so this is an outgrowth of a dialectical approach, which I really appreciate, because it’s like, you know, I can acknowledge the two poles on either end, and then very consciously say, Okay, what would be something in the middle? Which, when we’re in Emotion Mind, we often can’t get there. It’s like, oh, my gosh, I have to choose one or the other. And Walking the Middle Path reminds us we can deliberately choose something in the middle because it will be effective.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, when we’re in Emotion Mind, I think it’s really challenging to see beyond either/or, you know, or black and white. There’s only two opposing choices. And this skill helps us away from that either/or thinking into both/and thinking. So we can see other viewpoints or other perspectives, without invalidating what we’re thinking and feeling.

Ed Fowler 

And so what we’re trying to do when we’re purposefully trying to walk the middle path, is the first thing we need to do is acknowledge both extremes. So when we’re in a situation where we’re struggling and we notice that, we’re finding ourselves bouncing back between extremes, the first thing to do is to acknowledge those two extremes.

Ed Fowler 

And so for instance, the basic application of walking the middle path is using this Wise Mind balancing of acknowledging what we’re dealing with – what part is Emotion Mind, and what part is Reasonable Mind. And so those are the two extremes. And then we try to find something that can be in between the two. And that’s the where the middle path comes in. Where, okay, I’m acknowledging that this aspect of what I’m dealing with is Emotion Mind, this aspect of what I’m dealing with is Reasonable Mind. What can I do now that would be in between those two, where I can incorporate both? And so when we’re thinking about Wise Mind, we’re thinking about, Okay, I’m acknowledging the emotions, I’m aknowledging in the facts. And then what am I going to do that is balancing those two?

Ed Fowler 

So Walking the Middle Path is all about synthesis. And as you mentioned, Marielle, it’s about both/and, and so we can say to ourselves, I am both acknowledging these emotions that I’m having and I’m taking into account facts of the situation, the reasonable aspects of the situation, and then deciding what to do that is in between those two, rather than one or the other.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, because we can’t use facts and reason alone. And then ignore the values or feelings either by ourselves or of others. That usually doesn’t work. You know, if we, if we ignore the values and feelings of others, you know, we forget to include empathy. If we ignore the values and feelings of ourselves of ourself, we you know, forget to use self compassion. In our understanding of ourselves, so both are really important.

Ed Fowler 

One

Ed Fowler 

application, so as you were describing it, I was thinking about the middle path. And one application is balancing my needs and someone else’s needs. And so an example that just happened right before we started recording was that we were scheduled to start recording at a certain time, and I knew I wasn’t going to have enough time to get there. And it would be helpful to like, have an extra half hour to finish what I needed to finish, and so I had to think about instead of, I have to tell Marielle that I can’t do this today, I can’t meet at that specific time, I can’t do it, that’s my need and I just have to cancel. Or Marielle needs to do this today, I just have to suck it up, and I have to put things to the side, and I have to rush and I have to get there on time.

Ed Fowler 

And what I did, was I tried to think of the middle path. And so I recognized, I need extra time, an extra half hour would be great. I know that Marielle wanted to meet at this time. And this was the plan. And I’m not sure what her schedule looks like if that’s doable. So she might not be able to meet at a half an hour later. And so the middle path would be: is there a way to ask her what time would work between 2:00 and 2:30. And in that way, we were able to meet both of our needs. So instead of am I going to get my needs met or is Marielle going to get her needs met, the middle path was I’m going to ask for something in between 2:00 and 2:30, and we were able to find something that that worked for both of us.

Marielle Berg 

As you were talking, I was thinking about how when we’re in either extreme state of mind, all the way in emotion mind or reasonable mind, we can’t think very creatively so it’s hard to come up with alternative options. And so the way you presented it was, you know, it’s kind of this either/or: I get my needs met, meaning you Ed, or Marielle gets her needs met. And then you know, you thought oh, well, maybe there’s there’s a middle path here, a middle way.

Marielle Berg 

I’ve heard it described in couples therapy work that couples need to come up with a third way. Now there’s there’s one, well, you know, this was not not related to DBT, but just you know, couples therapy work in general. And I really like thinking about that for all kinds of relationships. What’s the third way, instead of mine or yours, what’s the third way that we create together, bringing in both our needs and perspectives.

Ed Fowler 

And as we’re trying to apply this middle path approach, when you were describing what I had described about my experience, I was recognizing that when I realized I wasn’t going to probably be ready at two o’clock, and I was going to have to really rush, I definitely started getting into Emotion Mind. Like, Oh my gosh, I have to – so what am I – cuz I can’t – Marielle, she’s not gonna be able to – Ah! And I started to go there. And luckily, I’ve been practicing DBT for a little while. So I was able to notice, oh, you’re getting into Emotion Mind, slow down, use the STOP skill: stop, take a step back, observe what’s happening, and then try to proceed mindfully. And that’s where I thought, wait a minute. Okay, I don’t know that I can meet at 2. I don’t know what Marielle’s schedule is, and I think it’s pretty tight today. I don’t know if she’s going to be able to meet at 2:30. What’s the middle way, I’m going to propose something in between and see how that works.

Ed Fowler 

And so I think an important thing, when we’re Walking the Middle Path, we really do want to be conscientious of trying to get ourselves to Wise Mind to look for what the middle path is. Because if we’re too deep in Emotion Mind, and the middle path is going to be I can, I can’t meet, I can’t, Ah! That’s the middle path Marielle, it’s the middle path, I can’t meet. And so we want to be able to like, use, for instance, from Distress Tolerance, the STOP skill, stop, take a step back, observe what’s happening, and the proceed mindfully is what might a middle path be.

Ed Fowler 

So another way of thinking about examples of Walking the Middle Path is balancing the intense desire for change of the moment, especially if we’re in a painful moment, and on the other extreme, Radical Acceptance of the moment. So that’s a little bit of a different example of where we might look for a middle path.

Ed Fowler 

So when we’re experiencing really difficult emotions and difficult stuff, we want to try to balance that desire like Ah, this feels so uncomfortable, I want it to go away. And this is where it is right now, this is where I am right now I need to accept that this is what’s going on. And when we talk about Radical Acceptance with people, like very often, it’s like I can’t accept, it’s too painful, it’s too hard to accept. And walking a middle path is a way to approach Radical Acceptance, where we acknowledge, I don’t like this, and I really want it to change, and I don’t have the power to change it immediately so I need to accept what’s happening right now, and then find something that can be in the middle.

Marielle Berg 

I was talking to a friend just yesterday about something that she felt a lot of shame about and it was hard for her to bring up. And she began talking about it. And it’s something that absolutely needed to change, it goes against her values, was not okay with her. And we started Problem Solving pretty quickly. And at some point, I was like, you know, what about some Radical Acceptance? What about some self-compassion here? Like you know, this needs to change, you want it to change, it’s not okay, but you’re being really harsh with yourself. And right now, you’re doing some things that don’t feel good for you and you’re really struggling with that. And she was like, no, no, I can’t, what I’m doing is wrong, like there was, you know, there was, it was very hard to kind of get to that place.

Marielle Berg 

And so as you’re talking, I’m thinking about this, like, radically accepting, like, this is what’s happening right now, even if I don’t like it, even if it goes against my values. And that doesn’t mean when we Radically Accept that we’re saying it’s okay, but it is the current reality. And usually, you know, beating ourselves up over something that’s happening, it doesn’t lead to any kind of lasting or effective change, so allowing for both the radical acceptance of the present while at the same time acknowledging and allowing for a strong desire for change for things to be different than they are. It’s such a hard one. That’s one, you know, I struggle with, regularly.

Ed Fowler 

Me too. Like, as I’m thinking about it, it’s like, I have like, oh, what’s an example? I have an example from, like, half an hour ago.

Ed Fowler 

Like, this happens

Marielle Berg 

It’s very human.

Ed Fowler 

so frequently.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah.

Ed Fowler 

And what I appreciate, and that’s why I really like the Middle Path skill is, like, I can very consciously acknowledge both extremes, and then look for something in the middle. Where I think it can increase Emotion Mind to say, Okay, I acknowledge both extremes, oh, my god, what am I going to do, I gotta pick one. And it’s really like, okay, rather than just go straight to acceptance, or rather than go straight to change, I’m going to acknowledge, this is what I would like to change. This is what I need to accept, because I can’t change it immediately. What are my options in the middle? And in a couple of minutes, we’ll talk about specific things to do to get there.

Ed Fowler 

But I appreciate the that ability to acknowledge both extremes. Because for me, when I can get into that self judgmental place, like I shouldn’t be frustrated with this, I shouldn’t be struggling with this, I shouldn’t be sad about this, like, I just gotta get over it, I gotta get over it. Or I got to accept, I got to accept, DBT radical acceptance! And it’s like, no, okay, this is what I don’t like, and I want to change. This is what I can’t change right now. And I need to accept, what are my options in between those two, and I get the opportunity to acknowledge and kind of validate, both extremes are happening right now.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah. And it allows for a chance to pause. And that pause is really important. Because again, I think it’s a place where ideas might come up that we hadn’t thought of before. And we just give ourselves a chance to breathe. And then it reduces some of the pressure to do something in the moment, that urgency.

Ed Fowler 

And I think that the Walking the Middle Path is kind of a specific way to try to practice accessing Wise Mind where we are trying to slow down and pause and notice. And rather than okay, I’m going to try to really get to a centered place within myself, or I’m going to kind of notice Reasonable Mind and Emotion Mind, we can look at the situation and say, Okay, what are the two extremes? What’s my path in the middle? And as you said, it’s really valuable to take that step back, slow it down, rather than going with the natural urge of Emotion Mind which is fix this now. Get this taken care of now. And this is a way, I find it maybe a little bit more specific way, than some of our other Wise Mind exercises to take that slower, more deliberate, more thoughtful approach to, I’ve got these two extremes, what are my options?

Ed Fowler 

Another example of trying to walk the middle path would be acknowledging what we call in DBT, Doing Mind on one extreme, and Nothing To Do Mind on the other extreme, and trying to find something between those two that balances those two. So Doing Mind is about doing what is needed in the moment, so doing what’s important right now. Including, you know, reviewing things from the past or planning for the future, and balancing that with Nothing To Do Mind, which is just being in the moment. Sometimes we call it Doing Mind and Being Mind. And so it’s like really looking for Okay, on one side, I need to do these things, and on the other side, I want to just be in the moment, what’s a way to be in the middle?

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, so we’re moving away from all work, no play, or conversely, all play and no work, right. And I think many of us fall into the trap of constant productivity as a marker of our worth, and discount just being. Doing nothing. I don’t even like calling it doing nothing, because I have more of a negative association with that when we’re doing nothing, we’re resting. We’re being, we’re existing.

Ed Fowler 

That’s why I also kind of prefer the Doing Mind and Being Mind to another way that we think about it, which is Doing Mind and Nothing To Do Mind. But I think that that trying to balance doing and being. And that’s hard. I know I can struggle with that.

Marielle Berg 

Yes, yes.

Marielle Berg 

And then so I mentioned the constant, you know, compulsion to being productive. And I think for others, they might find themselves more in the all play no work kind of realm. And and if you find yourself there, you really lose out on a sense of mastery, you lose out on a sense of agency, like the ability to direct your life in the way you want it to go. And you lose out on the fact that hard work and accomplishing things can feel good, and really give us a sense of self worth. But if that’s all we do, work hard and try to accomplish things, we lose out on this Being Mind and just you know, being a breathing, human being who needs rest.

Marielle Berg 

I tend to feel this most acutely, when I go on a vacation somewhere like a beach kind of vacation, not a city place where there’s lots to do. And the switch can be jarring, especially leading up to a vacation. There’s a lot to do before I head out, you know, for myself, and I think for most of us, that there’s you know, all this stuff, all this work and personal stuff and things to wrap up. And then I’m there in some beautiful setting and I’m, I’m at a loss. And when I when I find myself there are sort of like, Oh, now there’s Nothing To Do Mind or Being Mind. It takes me a little while to kind of, you know, remember that place, because usually I’ve been away from it for too long.

Ed Fowler 

And so using Walking the Middle Path as a tool in that kind of situation would be to acknowledge, okay, on one hand, for instance, I’m here on this vacation, and I’ve just been like, barreling forward to get here, and I’m very much in accomplishing things mode, and I specifically planned this so that I could just be for a little while, and I’m finding it hard to make the transition. What’s something for today that’s in between doing a lot of things and staying busy, and just literally laying around and resting? And my experience in that kind of break is when I get myself to a vacation. I’m much more like what am I doing, what am I doing? By the end of the vacation, I’m like, I don’t want to do anything. Yeah, all day doing nothing, fine, right? And so Walking the Middle Path at the beginning and at the end reminds us to like okay, I feel at the beginning of a vacation, an urge to do a lot of things and I specifically know I need some rest time. What’s a way to do a little, while also creating more space and building and more space for just being. And then towards the end of the vacation for me usually I’m much more in a Wise Mind. place by the end of the vacation. So this part is easier as like, Okay, I need to get myself packed and ready to get out of here, and I want to make sure that I’m still enjoying this downtime, so what’s a way to do a little bit of the preparing and while also having time for just being? And so that’s, I think a helpful example of a way to walk the middle path is to acknowledge both, and come up with something that is in between.

Marielle Berg 

And it makes me think of the next piece of Walking the Middle Path that we want to cover, which is trying to balance self denial and self indulgence.

Ed Fowler 

Which is about like, practicing moderation, while also satisfying our senses. And I think it’s a very common thing to struggle with, I need to either like just be doing the important things and not doing anything that’s quote unquote, unhealthy, and like, oh, I want to do very pleasurable things, physically pleasurable things, I want to enjoy pleasurable things. And so rather than saying, okay, I’m going to live very austerely, and not do anything that would be considered, quote, unquote, unhealthy, or I ought to just go all out and do whatever I feel like doing and being hedonistic and doing whatever feels good.

Ed Fowler 

Walking the Middle Path is such a valuable reminder of, I need both. So how do I find ways to enjoy physical sensations, and also not get lost in it, not have too much of it, that causes problems for me, and have a bit of moderation. And I think, for me, in my daily life, this is something that I’m conscientious of is, you know, there is the urge to like, I’m going to just do everything very healthy, and the urge of like, I don’t care about anything, I’m going to do whatever I feel like, won’t that feel good? And like, okay, what’s something in the middle, something that’s a little bit pleasurable, and reasonable, manageable isn’t going to be something where I regret it afterwards?

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, and beyond things that can fall under the heading of health, I think people can find themselves on either of these extremes in terms of self denial, and self indulgent, with all sorts of things that cater, I think, especially to the body. So I have a friend from ages ago, who moved to a colder climate and, and I don’t remember all the details around it, but for some reason, she wouldn’t allow herself to buy the warm clothes she needed. I think maybe she felt like she couldn’t afford it. Or maybe it was indulgent, because she was starting a new job, there was something. She was really much more in the camp of self denial. And I’m just gonna kind of, you know, when she didn’t need to, there were some funds to get herself some warm clothes. Versus someone who might be you know, just kind of throwing themselves in not thinking about their budget, just like I’m gonna get, you know, all the cashmere and everything toasty and I want to wrap myself in you know, warm, cozy blankets. And, you know, forgetting about oh wait, like I have, you know, financial constraints. So Walking the Middle Path in an instance like this as is attending to those needs is attending to the senses that need to be warm, the need for coziness and in a new and colder climate, and moderation.

Ed Fowler 

And so in those kinds of situations for me, I think about like, Okay, I want to buy all these things. And I need to be conscientious so here’s the few that I will buy, that will make me feel for instance, warm and cozy, without just like yeah, more! Give me 20 sweaters. I’m never buying 20 sweaters, but you know, give me 20 blankets, sure. So that’s where it’s like, Walking the Middle Path is about finding something in the middle, which in these examples like we will feel so much better. We will feel so much more at ease when we can enjoy things without guilt of I’m not conscientious of my finances or I’m not conscientious of my overall health and well being. Like we’re finding things that we can actually enjoy without regret. And that’s the opportunity the middle path offers. I

Marielle Berg 

like that framing enjoying without regret without feeling like oh, I’ve overdone it, and now it doesn’t feel good.

Ed Fowler 

Or I’m not allowed to do it. I can’t have that.

Marielle Berg 

Yeah, yeah. Both both backfire.

Ed Fowler 

Yes, that really and that’s where very often when people are struggling, we are bouncing back and forth between the two extremes. Oh my gosh, I’ve overdone it so much I need to go to the extreme of I am not doing anything. Oh, I feel so restricted, I need to let loose and oh, now I’ve overdone it again. And that’s where I think the middle path gets us out of that back and forth.

Ed Fowler 

And so I think it’s helpful to talk about specific things we can do to try to find the middle path. So specifically, to try to walk the middle path, the first thing we have to do is acknowledge the two extremes, the two poles, the two opposites that we’re trying to balance, synthesize, find something in the middle. So we acknowledge both of them.

Ed Fowler 

And then we can make a list of on those two extremes, in what way am I doing too much? And in what way, am I doing too little? So this is where we’re making it practical and actionable. Sometimes it’s just within our thoughts, we can do this, sometimes it’s a little harder so we might even want to write it down. But acknowledge the two extremes, like I need warm clothing for my new climate, and want to feel more cozy and soothed, in this new environment, and I need to be very conscious of my money, because money is tight. So that’ll be our example. And then we acknowledge, if those are the two extremes, in what way am I doing too much? In what way am I doing too little? And so maybe, in this example, it’s I’m doing too much noticing, feeling cold and telling myself I just have to put up with this. And I’m doing too little research on what would be reasonable things that would help me feel warmer and cozier. And there’s just in, we can come up with multiple examples. Sometimes it’s helpful to look at all the possibilities there.

Ed Fowler 

So we acknowledge the extremes. We look at what’s too much, and what’s too little. We Check the Facts always like because we want to make sure, am I being factual? It’s like, I’m doing way too much thinking about this. Is that factual? No, it’s like, I’m thinking about it, because it’s bothering me. That’s not a fact. The fact is, I’m I’m putting too much effort into denying myself, okay. And then we try to balance it with what can I do more? And what can I do less? And to walk the middle path we want to do both? So oh, I’m doing too much denying myself and I’m doing too little researching of my possibilities for things I might buy. So I’m just going to research things. I might buy. No, no, like, okay, I want to do less denying myself, I want to notice when the thought comes up, like, oh, I’m so cold, and just be with that thought, rather than pushing it away. So I want to do less of the denying, I want to do more of being with, okay, I’m feeling cold, I want to do less of the putting off researching, and I want to do more of actually looking for what are reasonable, affordable things I could do to feel more warmth when I’m struggling with the cold. And then we try to pick something to focus on and do that.

Ed Fowler 

And so that’s a concrete way that we might try to walk the middle path, acknowledge the extremes. Look at what am I doing too much of what am I doing too little of within these two extremes? What could I do more? What could I do less? We’re doing both sides. So that we’re really, that’s a way to go back and forth until we find a balance and then choose something from each to do more and to do less.

Marielle Berg 

And some helpful things to keep in mind are avoiding good and bad thinking and judgmental language. They can be sneaky that judge those judgments.

Ed Fowler 

Yes they can.

Marielle Berg 

yes, we’re trying to move away from good and bad. And maybe think more in terms of you know, what’s most effective here? Which can also be, what’s the middle path? And also, what is the middle path for you is going to be different than what’s a middle path for someone else. So we might, you know, look outside of ourselves, how is someone else doing it? Or how are they finding balance? And so for each person, it’s going to be individual. So really finding what that middle path is for ourselves.

Ed Fowler 

And you mentioned what’s effective, and I think Walking the Middle Path is another expression of the skill of Effectiveness. So it’s thinking about okay, I’m struggling with bouncing between these two extremes or the urge to go between two extremes. What would be effective in this situation that is in the middle? And this is where it’s that Walking the Middle Path reminds us that we can synthesize the extremes by finding something in the middle.

Ed Fowler 

Very often, if you’re struggling with frustration that something isn’t going well look at, what are the two extremes? What would be something effective that would be in the middle, that’s not too far on one side or the other? And so I think I like the framing of like, acknowledging the two poles and identifying that, and then just a little bit of reflection on okay, what am I doing too much, what am I doing too little? What could I do a little more? What could I do it a little less? Okay, I’m gonna pick between those and take action, take some steps and see how it goes.

Ed Fowler 

It’s also helpful to remember that there’s no such thing as a perfect middle path. Because I even as I’m thinking about this stuff, I’m thinking about like, Okay, I’ve got to find the perfect middle path. These are the extremes, and I’m going to be a very good DBT person and find the perfect middle path. It’s like, it’s really about what’s effective, trying to strike balance, trying to be easeful in what we we’re doing, rather than intense, and acknowledging, we’re gonna have to try something and see how it goes, versus I have to get the right thing, I have to get the right thing.

Marielle Berg 

There is no one right middle path. And it’s continually a work in progress. You’re going to be tweaking what the middle path is for you continuously.

Ed Fowler 

And for every new situation.

Marielle Berg 

Yes.

Ed Fowler 

And so that’s where I think it’s valuable to try to practice this to become, like we do with other skills, to become more familiar with what it’s like to try to apply finding a middle path. And so for, for all of the listeners who are taking this in, that you can think about, like, okay, what are some areas of my life where I feel like I’m getting stuck between two extremes. And I’m bouncing back and forth arm feeling kind of stuck between the tension of I can’t decide between the two extremes. And try to practice acknowledging those and finding something in the middle in whatever way works for you. So we’ve given some examples. But we each have to find what works for us what’s most effective for us, and practice that and practice it as often as possible. And I have found this is really integrated for me. And so, as long as I’m pretty close to Wise Mind, I will end up applying this. And it’s a sign for me that I’m too far in Emotion Mind when I’m like no middle path, one extreme or the other. And it really does sound like that in my head. And so that’s where it’s like, Okay, step back. What are the two opposing sides? What are the two extremes? What’s a possibility in the middle?

Marielle Berg 

Very nice. So with that will leave you to reflect on what your middle path looks like.

Ed Fowler 

Good luck and enjoy. So thanks, Marielle.

Marielle Berg 

Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy, you can find us online at BayAreaDBTCC.com.