#29: Using DBT Skills in Anti-Racist Work
Today Marielle and Ed offer ways to use DBT skills to support emotional equilibrium during a time where systemic anti-black racism is being confronted and discussed in new and necessary ways.
This episode is not about how to be anti-racist. That’s beyond what we can provide. The resources below serve as a starting point to learn more. Rather, this episode focuses on skills to help you find your emotional footing during a time of national tumult around race. This work deeply aligns with our values as therapists. Racism is a mental health issue and its impact may be easy to dismiss if we aren’t a member of a targeted group.
We recognize that our lens as white therapists limits us and that there is a lot we may get wrong. In the spirit of DBT, we want to approach what’s hard, rather than avoid.
Show Highlights
- Bringing mindful awareness to your experience of race and racism
- Noticing and naming where you are as a starting point
- Witnessing police brutality can be very evocative, particularly if you are a trauma survivor
- You might be scared, overwhelmed, or destabilized
- The importance of not judging your experience
- Not judging your experience doesn’t mean that we don’t acknowledge the helpful and the harmful, we just do it without judgment
- To have racist conditioning is not a personal failing – it’s the soup we are swimming in
- Am I in my Wise Mind? Or is it more Emotion Mind talking?
- Finding a balance between emotion and reason
- For those who are targeted by racism, strong emotion can be necessary and protective
- Dismantling racism is long term work
- Check the Facts: What are the facts vs. my own judgment or unexamined beliefs (that aren’t necessarily factual)?
- Getting more facts about how racism works in our world and the history of racism in the U.S.
- Looking at our unexamined assumptions
- Guilt fits the facts when our behavior violates our own values or moral code
- How can I use the emotion to spur effective action?
- Opposite action is useful when you feel like there is nothing you can do to change things.
- Radical Acceptance expands possibilities for change
- Radical Acceptance does not equal approval, compassion or passivity
- When Radical Acceptance feels out of reach, use the skill called Turning the Mind
Links & Resources
DBT Skills Training Handouts and Worksheets, Second Edition
Ask us a Question
We’d love to hear from you! Where are you getting stuck with your skills application? Ask us a question for the chance to have it answered on the podcast. Submit your question here.
Please note that questions, and this podcast in general, are not a substitute for individual mental health treatment.
#29: Using DBT Skills in Anti-Racist Work Transcript
Marielle Berg
Hello and welcome to The Skillful Podcast where we explore DBT and RO-DBT skills to help you reduce emotional suffering, improve your relationships, and become more present in your life. I’m your host, Marielle Berg, a psychotherapist at the Bay Area DBT and Couples Counseling Center.
Marielle Berg
Today, Ed and I are going to be using DBT skills to talk about how to deal with confronting racism, and engaging in anti-racist work. So given all that’s been going on in our world, in the last several weeks, we thought that this episode was really timely. And it’s something that has been on both our minds and on the minds of many of the people that we work with regularly.
Ed Fowler
I have been thinking a lot about how, as a white man in particular, I am not always aware of racism and the impact of racism on people in the world. And that I want to have an orientation towards being anti-racist, trying to work on racism. And for me, because DBT is such an important part of my life and how I approach the world, I’ve been reflecting a lot on the skills of DBT, and how those can help me if I want to be aware and effective in pursuing anti-racist practice.
Ed Fowler
And so Marielle and I thought that this would be a good opportunity for us to talk a little bit about how we’re thinking about this, just as a starting point for listeners to also consider in their own lives/
Marielle Berg
I echo a lot of what you just said. As a white woman, I feel like I turn away from awareness of racism in my community and in our country more than I’d like to, or when I do that turning away, I feel like I’m violating my own values. And that’s something that we also talk about in DBT, we spend a fair amount of time with values work. And so I think we both thought that this conversation could be aligned with our values, as therapists, as white people committed to anti-racist work, and as folks who who care about the healing and well being of the world as a whole.
Marielle Berg
So we’re aware that we have listeners from all over the world. And here in the US, which is, you know, our lens, anti-Black racism is particularly harmful and nefarious, widespread and often goes underground. And as we were, Ed and I were thinking about doing this podcast, I think I was also thinking about like, who is our audience? And how can we speak to them, and being aware that there are people of all different races and walks of life, who listen to this podcast and are tuning to it for everyday practical advice on how to bring the DBT skills to life. And we think that the skills have something to offer us in this realm to around anti-racism.
Ed Fowler
I think that you know, this awareness of moving beyond what a lot of people have talked about in terms of colorblindness, just saying, oh, well, I try not to see race and that kind of thing. But the recent events have really pointed out how racism exists andthe idea of pursuing anti-racist practice is particularly important at this time, when we recognize that older approaches of trying to be quote, unquote, colorblind or not see race, really ignore the direct impact of racism, especially on Black people.
Ed Fowler
For me, one of my important values is wanting to be aware of the ways that any kind of discrimination can have really negative impacts on people. And that racism is so pervasive that we don’t always notice those impacts and wanting to be active and involved in addressing that. And so for me, like I’ve really been conscientious of, okay, if I want to be effective in this work, what do I need to be doing, to stay engaged, stay involved, stay effective, stay humble about the limitations of my own perspective? And I have been finding that the DBT skills have been really helpful to me, and think that they could be helpful to listeners who also want to be oriented towards reducing and ending racism in our societies around the world.
Marielle Berg
Yes, and before we dive into those skills. This episode is not a how to be an antiracist 101 or 201, or 301. Like there are many resources out there, and articles and books, and other podcasts that you can listen to where you can learn that kind of information. And there are plenty of people who have made that their life’s work and know way more than we do on it. So we will link to some of those resources in the show notes. And you may already be consuming some on your own or have been. But that’s that’s a bit beyond what I think we are able to do.
Marielle Berg
What we are really hoping to do is to use the skills to help us find some kind of emotional equilibrium, and a clear path of a course of action during very turbulent times. And we’re also aware that people listening to this will be coming to this topic with different life experiences. So some people have been involved in anti-racist work for a long time. Others are new to it. And there are different nuances. So we will probably broadly be talking about white people. And were aware that anti-Black racism affects not just white people, but people of all different races. And there will be different sort of complications and things that will come up for different folks as they listen.
Ed Fowler
I think my awareness has been that we’re all coming to this discussion and this reflection from our own life experiences. And one of the things I appreciate about DBT is that foundation of mindful awareness of what is my experience? Noticing. What’s my perspective? What’s my experience? What am I struggling with? What am I energized by? And so I invite listeners, as you’re listening, if this is helpful information to really notice, like, Where am I coming from? What are my goals? What do I want? And how can these skills possibly help me and my own approach to dealing with important issues of equality, equity, fairness?
Marielle Berg
So let’s get into it. Let’s talk a little bit about the skills that we think might be helpful. And that we’ve been trying to use in our, in our own lives during this time. And so Ed, you mentioned mindfulness, which I think is a great place to start and a place I keep coming back to, in different ways over and over.
Ed Fowler
So just like, you know, for all of us, over the past several months, like there’s just been so much really big stuff happening around the world, and oftentimes really painful stuff. And so coming back to just noticing, what am I experiencing right now? What am I feeling? What thoughts do I have, as I watch what’s going on?
Ed Fowler
For me, it’s been really important to check in with that, to notice what am I feeling rather than getting overwhelmed or getting shut down, getting really angry or really fearful. To just notice and name, here’s what I’m experiencing in any given moment. And using that as a starting point for what to do next.
Marielle Berg
And I think when things are really tumultuous in the world around us, and for a lot of people that can look like police brutality, perhaps in their hometowns, protests sort of all over our country and the world, it can be incredibly evocative and very, very emotionally activating, particularly for anyone who has any history of trauma. So you might be feeling unsafe at times very unstable or uncertain. There might be a lot of fear or anger or grief, there can be a whole range of emotions that arise. And mindfulness really is the starting point.
Marielle Berg
And when we talk about mindfulness and and I know we have talked about this numerous times on the podcast, we’re not necessarily talking about meditation, which of course, is a wonderful way to practice mindfulness. But what what we really try to emphasize here and what DBT brings to the mindfulness conversation is how to be mindful in your everyday life.
Marielle Berg
So when you’re talking with people, when you’re, you know, brushing your teeth, when you’re going about your daily tasks, how to bring mindful awareness to how you are in that moment. What you’re thinking, what you’re feeling, what’s happening in your body. And this is a wonderful way to help really settle your system and ground you in the moment in the midst of all this kind of stuff that can feel incredibly destabilizing.
Ed Fowler
And there are a couple of DBT skills that go along with our mindfulness practice that I think can also be really helpful. One of them is Nonjudgmentalness. So when we talk about trying to be mindful and aware of what’s happening in any given moment, we want to bring a sense of nonjudgmentalness to that.
Ed Fowler
And so when we’re talking about noticing thoughts and feelings around racism, and violence based on race, and that kind of stuff, being able to nonjudgmentally notice, like I’m feeling really afraid, or I’m feeling really angry. I am noticing.Ppart of nonjudgmentalness is noticing, I am having judgments about other people, and what they’re doing, where they’re coming from. And so as we’re noticing what’s happening within us, and noticing what’s happening around us, being able to like, be as factual as possible about this is what’s happening. Name it, without adding this is wrong, I shouldn’t be feeling this way, they shouldn’t be doing that, but just: this is what’s happening.
Marielle Berg
And with that, I know we’ve gotten, you know, questions when we talk about the skill in our group, we know with Radical Acceptance and with being Nonjudgmental, it doesn’t mean that we’re saying that actions necessarily are okay. When we’re practicing being nonjudgmental, we’re acknowledging the difference between the helpful and the harmful, between the safe and the dangerous, but we’re not judging them. So it’s not like we’re saying, okay, just be kind of this impartial robot. We absolutely gets to acknowledge the helpful and the harmful that we are witnessing.
Ed Fowler
The focus is acknowledging. Just saying, this is what I’m experiencing, this is what I’m seeing, this is what’s happening.
Marielle Berg
And I think maybe, Ed, when we started this conversation about nonjudgmentalness, I mean, I can’t read your mind. But my hunch is that you were thinking about it primarily in terms of wanting to encourage folks to not judge themselves?
Ed Fowler
Yes, yes.
Marielle Berg
So let’s talk about that, because that’s really where a lot of the emotional suffering can come in.
Ed Fowler
Right.
Ed Fowler
And again, I think when it comes to topics of racism, for so many people, there can be a lot of judgments. You know, for some people who have experienced racism directed towards them, there’s a sense of, I should be over this, I shouldn’t be letting this affect me. For people who may have done or said things that are, they’re recognizing as having racist background to it, a sense of I shouldn’t have done that, I am a terrible person for having that thought.
Ed Fowler
And again, in order to work on racism, we need to be able to acknowledge without judgment. Here is what I am experiencing. So for instance, I said something that now I recognize it is insensitive and harmful. And I’m feeling guilty, versus oh, my god, I can’t believe, I shouldn’t have said that.
Marielle Berg
Which can really shut down our own learning. And one way that’s helpful for me to think about this to have it be less personal. So we are all kind of swimming in the same soup of racist conditioning. And so it’s not so personal. If we say something racist, of course, it is personal, in terms of the the person that we’ve hurt, if we’ve directed it, kind of directly to someone. But in terms of it’s not a personal failing.
Marielle Berg
If we are committed to being anti-racist, and we find ourselves or we reflect on something we’ve done in the past, where we’re like, ouch, that wasn’t okay. Or god, my unconscious bias was really coming through there, that these, this is a conditioning that we particularly as white people have really inherited. We haven’t created it. But we have been exposed to it, for many of us, kind of since day one. So of course, it will come out from time to time. And I think a lot of the intense beating up of ourselves that can happen doesn’t move us forward in our learning, it really kind of shuts us down.
Ed Fowler
That’s another skill that we apply to mindfulness, which is Effectiveness. We’re not looking at if we’re being nonjudgmental. We’re not trying to decipher right or wrong, good or bad. We’re noticing, we’re naming, and we’re focusing on trying to be effective. What are our goals? And what’s the most effective way to reach those goals?
Ed Fowler
So when we’re looking at a mindfulness practice and being aware of what’s going on, recognizing that if I allow myself to get into a lot of judgments of myself or others, I may become shut down and ineffective to take any actions that might change that. So for instance, if I am feeling really guilty about my own privilege, I, it’s probably not going to be effective for me. Because I can easily and this is something that’s really conditioned for white people in particular, to shut down and say, there’s nothing I can do. Oh my god, I just feel so bad. And if we want to be effective, we have to maintain some flexibility. That’s what the DBT skills offer. And focusing on okay, I’m trying to be effective, I need to be nonjudgmental, let me just notice and name and then move forward.
Marielle Berg
But related to mindfulness, and this idea of being effective, is our concept of Wise Mind. Which is something I’ve been thinking about a lot as well. Like, am I in my Wise Mind? Are the folks I’m talking to in their Wise Mind? Or is it more Emotion Mind talking? And so the mindfulness skills are a support or can really help you access your Wise Mind, because they provide a way for you to step outside or create a little bit of space between what you’re thinking and feeling, or create a little bit of space between you and your experience.
Marielle Berg
So you can step back a little bit and kind of comment to yourself internally, like, Oh, I’m feeling really bad about myself right now. Or, Oh, I’m feeling really overwhelmed, or I have a lot of fear about what’s happening in the world, or I don’t know where to start and in my anti-racist work, or what’s the next right action. And so the mindfulness helps us have a bit of distance, which can help us get to a place where we feel more grounded and able to access our Wise Mind. And only really from there, can we know more clearly, what’s what’s effective.
Ed Fowler
In DBT, this concept of Wise Mind really is such an important part of how we operate effectively in the world. Recognizing that for all of us, we have to find a balance between emotion and reason, between emotional responses and kind of the facts of any given situation. Working towards anti-racism, can bring up really strong emotions for everyone. So people who are targeted by racism, there can be really strong emotions that go along with that, that are actually functional, to help people protect themselves. And in a world that has been structured around racism, for those who are not necessarily targets, and in certain ways, we can have really strong emotions of fear that come up.
Ed Fowler
And the sense of like, I, if I let go of some of my unexamined privilege, I may be more at risk. And so we want to be conscientious of noticing those emotions, recognizing that if we’re too much in the emotion, we’re not going to be able to think clearly, we’re not going to be able to act with effectiveness. So we want to seek some balance. And Wise Mind is about making sure that there’s some facts involved. There’s we’re not ignoring emotion, we’re just acknowledging it, noticing it, and seeking that balanced sense of centeredness before we act.
Marielle Berg
And people who are drawn to DBT often have strong emotions, and are more sensitive. And so when there’s a lot of strong emotion, or you’re watching things that are, you know, incredibly evocative happen around you, or in the news, you, you might feel it more strongly. And you’re gonna need to take extra time and care to get yourself to that place of equilibrium, to get yourself to that place that feels like your Wise Mind.
Marielle Berg
And I know this has come up, you know, a bit in the groups that we lead, where people have felt like, oh, this is, this is kind of indulgent, or you know, the world is on fire. And here we are talking about mindfulness and self soothing. And so my, my response to that is, I get it, it can feel like that at times. And if we aren’t kind of in our best-self place, emotionally, it’s going to be super, super hard to make the changes we want to see happen in the world really happen. We’re not going to be able to take effective action and likely there might be some collateral damage to kind of ourselves and those around us, that we care about, if we’re feeling really emotionally activated or unstable.
Ed Fowler
And that’s where I think the concept of dialectical thinking can be helpful to awareness that more than one thing can be true at one time. So I do want to be really actively engaged in addressing what’s going on, that’s harming people in my community. And sometimes I need a break, to regroup and to figure out what I need to stay effective.
Ed Fowler
And as for me, particularly as a white man, it can be really easy to let that break extend for a long period of time well beyond the effectiveness, right. So I have been utilizing this dialectical awareness of like, noticing what’s happening, and trying to not get stuck on any one side or the other. Notice, if I’m too far on one side, and pull myself back. Again, all of the skills of DBT require a lot of practice, and a lot of trial and error, because nothing is a one size fits all one and done approach. It requires that flexibility to notice, okay, I’ve been resting and kind of regrouping, now what do I want to do to take action. Or I’ve been really acting and doing a lot, and I’m feeling a bit overwhelmed, I need to take a break. Being able to hold that balance.
Marielle Berg
Yeah, and both are equally important. One supports the other. And this is, this is long term work. It’s in our national and international, perhaps, consciousness in a new kind of intensified way now, in a way that sort of been, I think, unprecedented in our history. And so there’s tons of of interest in this and corporations are putting out statements against racism. And all that is, is positive, I’m guessing, if they’re not just sort of empty words, but this, this is long term work. So there’s a urgency around it right now that I think a lot of people can feel and that, you know, if you’re in your Wise Mind, you can harness that energy, and know that this is, this is going to take a long time to shift.
Ed Fowler
Absolutely. And for me, I’m really aware that I want to be dedicated to the long haul, and not just focused on when something’s in the news. I want to be aware of it and talk about it and act on it, but really being more dedicated to on a longer term basis. And that does require that Wise Mind balance, to be able to go back and forth.
Ed Fowler
I think another aspect of Wise Mind, you know, this, this recognition that we need reason and facts to balance emotion at times, brings us to one of our Emotion Regulation skills, which I have found, particularly important in dealing with anti racism is the skill of Checking the Facts. And really trying to notice in any situation that’s causing strong emotions, what are the facts of the situation? And what are my own judgments or assumptions, unexamined beliefs that are part of it that are not necessarily factual?
Ed Fowler
And so for me, I have been trying to use this skill to study about racism more, to be more aware of racist practices that result in a lot of harm, and death, and wanting to be aware of structures that support this approach. Understanding what is racism? And how does it work, reading up again, about anti-racism, and getting more facts about what this is, in order to then be able to balance out my emotional responses of you know, this isn’t right, I feel so passionate about fairness and equity, that I gotta do something I want to keep that balanced with, with facts.
Marielle Berg
And so can you say a little bit more about how you’re using Check the Facts, say for anger, or guilt or whatever strong emotions are coming up for you right now?
Ed Fowler
Yeah. So, being able to notice, if I’m having a strong emotion, okay, what are the facts here? Versus what are my own judgments, my own interpretations, my own assumptions. And I think this is particularly helpful if we’re trying to engage in anti-racist work, to notice our own biases that can oftentimes be unexamined. And this is true for everyone. Like we all have biases based on our own experiences. If we act out of those without reflection, then they can cause harm. So noticing and reading more about, you know, racist policies, racist attitudes that cause harm, and being able to notice like, oh, do I have unexamined assumptions, unexamined perspectives, about situations that I need to be a little bit more thoughtful and conscientious about?
Ed Fowler
Noticing, for instance, guilt, and this is something that comes up when we’re looking at racism for white people in particular, but for anyone who who recognizes that they have done things that have contributed to racist actions and noticing what is that guilt and checking the facts. What are the facts that that justify my guilt? And what are my own beliefs or assumptions that may inflame it? And this is where people working on anti-racism can sometimes get shut down is like, oh, I feel so guilty I’m white, and I’ve experienced so much privilege and other people have been harmed. And there’s just nothing that I can do to ever make up for that.
Ed Fowler
And Check the Facts would encourage us to say, okay, what are the facts? I am white. That affords me privilege that people who are not white don’t have, people who are Black in particular, have a lot of harm that I don’t experience. Okay, those are facts. It’s my fault, there’s nothing I can do. It’s not my fault. I didn’t create this racist system. Those are more opinions or assumptions that are not based in facts that are going to increase my guilt maybe, or my defensiveness that I want to, like, really kind of go back and check like, are those factual? Or are those more just like, ideas that I have that aren’t necessarily based in facts? This helps us strike a little bit more balance.
Marielle Berg
Yes, and I think guilt is such a tricky one, because people can kind of drown in it and then become ineffectual or feel really disempowered. And guilt, according to DBT, fits the facts when our behavior violates our own values or moral code. And so for anyone who’s made it this far, and listening to this podcast, I’m guessing that acting in ways that are racist even if they’re not kind ofovert, and maybe take more of the shape of microaggressions probably does violate your own values and moral codes. And that feels pretty bad. And I think the trick is when guilt really does fit the facts, is to think about how can I use this emotion to spur effective action? Rather than drowning in it or shying away from anti-racist work because it’s too hard.
Marielle Berg
And so some of the ways to kind of spur guilt into action is trying to repair transgressions, or doing work to repair or prevent similar harm to others. And that’s in some of the activists work that we’re seeing right now, with people protesting and trying to make policy changes. And and I’ve realized, as I say that, that these are kind of higher level ways to spur guilt, or shame, or anger, or really a whole bunch of emotions into, into action. But there’s also the smaller level work. And I don’t know if this is the right language to talk about it. But that can happen for all of us on a regular basis. And that means talking to people in our lives or pointing out things that when when we hear things that feel, or sound racist to us, talking to our families, talking to our loved ones, loved ones. For white people having this conversation with other white people. So we can begin to feel like we are part of making change in a positive direction.
Ed Fowler
And for me, like checking the facts on my own feelings of guilt, that I have not done enough to address racism, that I’m not active enough in anti racist work, which when you know, when I check the facts, I recognize like, your guilt tells us that we’re out of line with our own values, and factually, I have not done as much as I wanted to, I have not been as effective as I want to be in counteracting racism.
Ed Fowler
And so when our emotion fits the facts, we move into Problem Solving, to work on what can I do. And this podcast is one thing that Marielle and I have talked about of like, we have expertise in DBT, how can you use DBT skills to be anti-racist and practice anti-racism. And so this is a way to do more, and take action.
Ed Fowler
But this very much for me has come out of the sense of like, I’m not doing enough, I want to do more. Another thing for me that I am using is research and studying and reading about racism and anti-racism in order to be more informed and more aware and ground what I’m doing in more facts around people who have studied this stuff, or effective ways to pursue being anti-racist. And all of that comes from checking the facts on my own guilt.
Marielle Berg
And you know, in this conversation about checking the facts also makes me think about Opposite Action. And I feel like we’ve been weaving that into the conversation we just had about checking the facts. And so when we use Check the Facts, we, if our emotion doesn’t fit the facts, or if our emotion does fit the facts, but acting on it isn’t effective, then we use Opposite Action.
Marielle Berg
So we’ve actually just talked a bunch about how to essentially do Opposite Action for guilt that might actually fit the facts. But kind of, you know, drowning in the in the guilt is not at all effective. I also think about Opposite Action for for overwhelm, and inertia, which are not really emotions that I think are anywhere in our DBT skills, but maybe they they could be, or they might fall under some of the other major emotions. But those are things that I think you’ve been talking about, or you just talked about right now, and things that I have felt also at my at moments myself and thinking about acting opposite to what our emotion is telling us to do.
Marielle Berg
So with overwhelm, our emotion might be telling us or that sense of overwhelm telling us to avoid. I can’t, I can’t go near this, or I don’t know what to do, I don’t know enough, it’s too much. And so thinking about small ways to practice Opposite Action. And that might be depending on where you are, in your process and in your learning and your own social location. That might be opening up a book or listening to a podcast on this topic. It might be talking to a friend or opening up conversations with other people, it might be making a donation it might be attending a protest for so for different people, it’ll look different ways.
Marielle Berg
But I think Opposite Action has been guiding me quite a bit. And even doing this podcast today is I think podcasting for me is always Opposite Action, because it’s not in it’s not a comfort zone for me to be talking publicly to potentially a lot of people. So I’m always practicing Opposite Action for fear when I podcast, but I definitely felt it today. Like I don’t know enough, or I have to read a bunch more books or listen to a bunch more podcasts before I can say anything about this. And I appreciate you, Ed, for really encouraging me and encouraging us to kind of go ahead and do this, even though we might make mistakes, we’re not going to get it all right, and we’re kind of in process with it.
Ed Fowler
And as you’re talking, I’m also thinking for people who haven’t are targeted by racism and racist structures, that sense of overwhelm is very different. And Opposite Action might be to take a break, to take care of yourself to do some self soothing, versus I have to do more, have to be more involved, if that’s part of the guilt or the overwhelm.
Ed Fowler
And so for all of us, it’s really reflecting on again, this comes back to the mindfulness. What’s happening for me right now, what emotions am I noticing, checking the facts on it, figuring out what’s the effective action to take, sometimes that’s opposite action if the emotion doesn’t really fit, or if it’s lasting too long, or it’s not effective. Sometimes it’s problem solving where the emotion fits, and I want to do something I’m angry about this. And anger fits the facts. And so I want to do something I problem solve around what to do.
Marielle Berg
So, before we go for today, let’s talk a little bit about Radical Acceptance, which is, you know, our skill that we come back to over and over.
Ed Fowler
I think that Radical Acceptance has been something that I’ve been reflecting on a lot, we have Radical Acceptance as one of our Distress Tolerance skills in DBT, based on the awareness that if we are rejecting reality as it is, if we are saying that reality as it is, shouldn’t be this way, it’s not right, I hate this, this feels terrible, we often take the pain of that reality and deepen it, turn it into greater suffering.
Ed Fowler
And Radical Acceptance can help us to just simply accept: this is the reality. So seeing everything that’s been happening in the news over the past several months, and all of the pain and the suffering, the confrontation, around racism that’s happened over the past several weeks, can create a lot of distress. And very often a sense of it shouldn’t be this way. Radical Acceptance offers the option to say it is this way, I don’t like it, I don’t want it, this is scary or overwhelming or deeply painful for me. And this is how it is.
Ed Fowler
And I’ve been coming back to that when I’m feeling overwhelmed, to just say here is the reality. I can’t control all of it. I’m not powerful enough to affect every system that perpetuates racism. I’m not powerful enough to provide healing to anyone struggling with it. I’m not powerful enough to argue with anyone. And here’s what it is, this is what it is. For me personally, I very much view Radical Acceptance as a way to relieve the tension of, oh, this is such a painful reality, that then opens up possibilities for change, opens up more awareness of okay, if this is the reality, and this is what it is, now, what might I do?
Marielle Berg
Yes.
Marielle Berg
And just a reminder, when we are talking about Radical Acceptance, we are not talking about approval. And I think you said it so well, just now. But I wanted to throw that in there, too. We’re not talking,
Ed Fowler
Yes, absolutely.
Marielle Berg
we’re not talking about passivity. We’re not against change, but it’s fully and completely opening up to what’s happening right now. And this can also be for folks, for white folks who are new to this work are feeling very uncomfortable, or destabilized about kind of all, like a new awareness or consciousness, Radical Acceptance of, of kind of where you are now.
Ed Fowler
Just again, being able to acknowledge this is what’s happening, this is where I am, I’m accepting that this is, what is, as a way to decrease the tension. So that then we can look at, okay, what could I do? What do I do next?
Ed Fowler
Oftentimes, Radical Acceptance leads to sadness. And if we really accept the, all of the ways that racism has cost lives, and impacted lives and created suffering, across centuries, sadness would be an appropriate response. And so sometimes we’re going to find ourselves in that, and then accepting that sadness. For me, I always come back to, and then what, what will I do? And I think a helpful follow up skill to Radical Acceptance, or it’s really a precursor, but in our skills book, it’s a follow up, is the idea of Turning our Mind Towards Acceptance, when acceptance is too hard.
Ed Fowler
When it’s way too hard to actually accept what a painful reality, we turn our mind towards that acceptance. So that we’re, we’re even if we can’t accept, we’re trying. And I apply this also to anti-racist work, right? That while I might not be able to fully engage all the time, I’m turning my mind towards being anti-racist. And being willing to point myself in that direction, even if I’m not getting there yet.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And with Turning the Mind, we’re sort of going within ourselves and making an inner commitment to accept reality as it is. And so that’s different than kind of fully accepting it. But it’s a, it’s a precursor, or it’s the step before Radical Acceptance, when that feels like too much or a place you can’t get to in that moment.
Ed Fowler
For me, I’ve also been reflecting on as a white man, the acceptance that I am racist. Like that there’s no avoiding that in our society. And I think for a lot of people, no matter what their background is, we’re recognizing the ways that racism can influence us without noticing it. And so being able to just accept that, and then choose what I do next, is a more helpful and more effective starting point, than, no, I’m not, or well, yes, I am and there’s nothing I can do. It’s just like, okay, I have been impacted by racism, I can approach things from a lens, that’s not acknowledging that I’m accepting that, turning my mind towards accepting that, and trying to continue to do something that’s more in line with my deeper values.
Marielle Berg
Yes. And again, that this isn’t, as I said earlier, so so personal, it’s not that you came into the world racist, nor did I, these are ideas that we have been exposed to in big and little ways throughout our lifetime, as white people. And so it’s going to come up, and it’s going to come out. And so to not kind of shrink and shame or feel like you’re a terrible person. It’s, again, it’s what we’ve sort of inherited. And the task is what, what can we do about it? How can we act effectively, both taking care of our communities, and ourselves while upholding our values?
Ed Fowler
So I hope that this discussion of all of these DBT skills and how they can specifically be applied to trying to pursue anti-racist work in our own lives might be helpful. And again, like, all of this is about recognizing what’s going on for me, what’s important to me, how do I live the life that is meaningful to me and impact the world in the way that I want to?
Marielle Berg
All right, thank you, Ed.
Ed Fowler
Thank you.
Marielle Berg
Thanks for listening to today’s episode. To learn more, or if you’re in the Bay Area and want to get started with therapy you can find us online at bayareadbtcc.com. That’s bayarea